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Old 09-21-2012, 02:41 PM   #1126
spimp13
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

As an idea for a possibly sticky I think you should do a good action/bad action list for both sellers and buyers. I am a member on a pool forum that has this and it eliminates some headaches/searches for screen names if you are unsure. I know there is a negative thread elsewhere and you can always search on here or elsewhere on google etc...but its just a thought... We call it the GAL for "good action list". This way a buyer can determine easily by this thread if someone is a good seller with running packages/reimbursing etc...as well as a seller can decide if they want to accept from a buyer. Also, next to the good action list of the seller list methods of payment they accept with appreviations so eliminate questions asking about payment methods in threads. Most sellers put this information, but sometimes it is missing.

Example

Good action list of sellers:

xxx - pstars/paypal
ddd - blackchip/moneybookers
ttt

Good action list of buyers:
yyy
rrr
ddd

Bad action list of sellers:
aaa (with link to a thread or two)
bbb

Bad Action list of buyers:
iii
lll (with link to a thread)
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:43 PM   #1127
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

To add to this the post with all the names can be edited with info/links to update it and buyers and sellers can post in the sticky thread on an experience s/n etc so they can be added or deleted by a mod.

Make sure to put as a disclosure that it is a "guideline" and you still buy/sell at your own risk.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:38 PM   #1128
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10...forums-141755/
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:42 PM   #1129
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Ill Start:

Good Buyers: K_2
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:46 PM   #1130
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I did see that thread, but the idea was more to keep tabs in the first post with only listing names/links/methods of payment they accept etc. No bigge, just trying to help from people having to search all over in threads combing posts looking for the s/n etc.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:47 PM   #1131
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

+1,

simple list
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:31 AM   #1132
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Basically, what we already have, but with rules about the format in which people post, with mods constantly policing as well as editing the first post.

Sounds great in theory, but I just don't see it happening in reality, unfortunately.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:50 PM   #1133
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_2 View Post
Brighton32 on Pokerstars scammed me for $2380
....
So maybe its a lesson in general.
Maybe most stakees have a plan to wait for the big-score and then run off with the 'last laugh?'.. idunno, but im thinkin of revampin how i run my staking business, thats for sure
That sucks!

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10.../index128.html

Is the place most potential backers will be looking for that kind of information.You should post there as well. Maybe give it a day or two to make sure this is not a "tired after a long session" and "accidental delete on Skype" situation.
IMO you should definitely out the brother as well and post what happened.
Twoplustwo account names would be helpful as well even if the nick is the same.

I don't agree with your generalization. There're three different kind of scam motivations
  • Premeditation; the person is prepared to scam from day one.
  • Opportunity; big score, would be nice to keep it all.
  • Desperation; need money, take it.
While most scams are motivated by some combination of all three, opportunity as a major motive is actually pretty rare.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:45 AM   #1134
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

thank you jh, btw i did include his 2p2 name in my post, his brother i dunno. I have also posted in the Negative feedback Market, i not much of a link clicker


The place for all this:
Negative feedback post:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1914


.

Last edited by Rainbow Warrior; 10-03-2012 at 01:13 AM. Reason: link entered - multiple duplicated posts in this thread deleted
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:37 AM   #1135
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Hey guys I got a quick question

I seem to be stuck on the outside of the circle. I recently decided to either attempt to get staked or start selling pieces of myself to reduce the variance. Quickly realized I wasnt going to get staked with no references. So I started 2 threads yesterday trying to sell action for Saturday and Sunday, but still I'm being asked for references (which makes sense.

So my question is if to get invested in I need references, but to get references I need to be invested in. What do I do to get my references?
Seems like an ugly never ending circle where you have to get lucky to squeeze through the cracks
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:18 AM   #1136
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I used to stake people without refs if it was low risk for me. Either way, via staking or selling, start SMALL and work your way up.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...t-6th-1253816/

Is it really a surprise that you couldn't sell a 3k package?
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:26 AM   #1137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz View Post
I used to stake people without refs if it was low risk for me. Either way, via staking or selling, start SMALL and work your way up.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...t-6th-1253816/

Is it really a surprise that you couldn't sell a 3k package?
No I didn't really expect to sell it. Was hoping for about 15% though thinking I could slowly gain until I could continuously sell 65%. But expected more than 1% lol
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:27 AM   #1138
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Try selling action to one tournament, like the BIG 55, and move from there.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:40 AM   #1139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz View Post
Try selling action to one tournament, like the BIG 55, and move from there.
Alright I guess I will give that a try. How long would you wait Until you move up to selling 3/4 mtts at a time? Also who do I contact to close my other 2 threads then?
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:02 AM   #1140
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

You gotta use some intuition when making your posts. I don't know all the answers.

Use in your thread to get a mod to close.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:10 AM   #1141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz View Post
You gotta use some intuition when making your posts. I don't know all the answers.

Use in your thread to get a mod to close.
Okay thank you. Really helped alot
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:15 PM   #1142
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyobo View Post

So my question is if to get invested in I need references, but to get references I need to be invested in. What do I do to get my references?
Seems like an ugly never ending circle where you have to get lucky to squeeze through the cracks
pm me and ill look over ur proposal
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:37 PM   #1143
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

nvm gonna try and work this out
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:18 PM   #1144
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Semi-weird question, but the large staking site out there isn't an option for me. I used to buy a LOT of stuff through here pre-Black Friday.

How feasible is it to be able to stake from the US these days in regards to buying shares?

Can I invest a fair amount in <$30 increments daily, through bank transfers and p@yp@l?

Have these types of investments tended to be reliable?

Thanks guys.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:01 PM   #1145
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I'm pretty sure 2p2 marketplace is still an option! but you might have problems finding buys with just paypal and bank transfers.
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:02 AM   #1146
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

be careful with a ton of paypal transfers. at some point they will crack down on a ton of transfers
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:39 AM   #1147
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Thanks and agreed! Good to see you still around doggz. I think you were one of my biggest hits back then.
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:45 PM   #1148
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Staying on the paypal topic, NEVER put in anything in the notes section (Both sellers and buyers) when sending payments in regards to the action, links to threads, mentioning raffles, %s, etc. I had my paypal shutdown because of that and have seen it happen to fellow friends accounts.

Fortunately I "think" I will be able to get back in the game using my fiance's acc assuming they don't freeze it do to the address matching my account or profile. Payments are coming out of different accounts.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:48 PM   #1149
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Not sure if this deserves its own thread so I've posted in here.

I was bored so I did a little bit of research and this is what I found.

Here are stats for the top 20 players in pocketfives rankings, whose Pokerstars sharkscope stats were unlocked.

Games ¦ Av.Prof¦ Stake ¦ Roi ¦ Profit ¦Ability
15,365 ¦ $25.4 ¦¦ $70.9 ¦ 33.8% ¦ $390,237 ¦¦ 96
51,029 ¦ $8.78 ¦¦ $120 ¦¦ 7% ¦¦¦ $447,986 ¦¦ 94
6,183 ¦¦ $43.59 ¦ $66.9 ¦ 61.2% ¦ $269,489 ¦¦ 96
11,934 ¦ $33.35 ¦ $128 ¦ 24.9% ¦ $397,995 ¦¦ 95
2,191 ¦¦ $139 ¦¦¦ $133 ¦ 98.4% ¦ $303,669 ¦¦ 97
12,774 ¦ $26.62 ¦ $177 ¦ 14.3% ¦ $340,050 ¦¦ 96
19,059 ¦ $7.75 ¦¦ $54.9 ¦ 13.3% ¦ $147,644 ¦¦ 94
35,596 ¦ $11.43 ¦ $90.9 ¦ 12.1% ¦ $406,888 ¦¦ 96
8,781 ¦¦ $35.89 ¦ $186 ¦ 18.3% ¦ $315,119 ¦¦ 98
14,134 ¦ $25.64 ¦ $107 ¦ 22.8% ¦ $362,367 ¦¦ 96
18,527 ¦ $19.23 ¦ $126 ¦ 14.4% ¦ $356,294 ¦¦ 95
14,086 ¦ $16.41 ¦ $107 ¦ 14.5% ¦ $231,089 ¦¦ 96
11,770 ¦ $62.6 ¦¦ $148 ¦ 40.3% ¦ $736,857 ¦¦ 97
14,242 ¦ $47.91 ¦ $129 ¦ 35.2% ¦ $682,330 ¦¦ 96
7,776 ¦¦ $46.62 ¦ $163 ¦ 27.4% ¦ $362,514 ¦¦ 96
11,842 ¦ $64.81 ¦ $159 ¦ 38.7% ¦ $767,515 ¦¦ 99
5,749 ¦¦ $90.31 ¦ $133 ¦ 64.8% ¦ $519,192 ¦¦ 96
11,555 ¦ $50.72 ¦ $157 ¦ 30.7% ¦ $586,054 ¦¦ 99
13,346 ¦ $49.71 ¦ $124 ¦ 38% ¦¦¦ $663,482 ¦¦ 97
32,121 ¦ $33.89 ¦ $177 ¦ 18.4% ¦ $1,088,739¦ 98

15903 ¦¦ $41.83 ¦ $128 ¦ 31.4% ¦ $468,776 (Average)

I'd guess this includes some of the best MTT'ers with some of the highest ROI's at those stakes. The ability ratings would suggest that. As you can see from this, of all the players with samples of more than 10000 MTT's the highest ROI is 40% and the one really high ROI is a fairly small sample so I have doubts this would be their long term ROI.

Next I looked at the first 20 marketplace threads where the OP had unlocked pokerstars stats in sharkscope and added the average stake they were selling for and the markup they were charging. I then added what I would consider a fair markup.

When guessing fair markup I went under the assumption that expected ROI in the games they were selling should be split 50/50 between seller and buyer.

Obviously this is just guess work but for the first one the seller has 31% ROI at a stake of $17. They're selling for 5x their average stake so I adjusted the expected ROI to 15% and halved it. For packages that I thought were losing packages I just put 0%.


Games ¦ Av.Prof ¦ Stake ¦ Roi ¦¦¦¦ Profit ¦ Ability ¦ Stake ¦ MarkUp ¦ Fair Markup
7,067 ¦¦ $5.91 ¦¦ $17.5 ¦ 31.3% ¦¦ $41,779 ¦ 84 ¦ $79.7 ¦¦ 15% ¦ 8%
85,716 ¦ $1.91 ¦¦ $13.1 ¦ 13.5% ¦ $163,655 ¦ 76 ¦ $36.58 ¦ 20% ¦ 5%
17,996 ¦ $12.44 ¦ $114 ¦ 10.5% ¦ $223,862 ¦ 96 ¦ $116 ¦¦¦ 25% ¦ 5%
43,024 ¦ $6.01 ¦¦ $81.9 ¦¦ 7% ¦ $258,558 ¦¦ 91 ¦ $207 ¦¦¦ 28% ¦ 2%
88,305 ¦ $2.43 ¦¦ $15.7 ¦ 14.3% ¦ $214,162 ¦ 79 ¦ $33.8 ¦ 19% ¦ 5%
10,510 ¦ $2.85 ¦¦ $27.3 ¦ 9.9% ¦¦ $29,973 ¦¦ 84 ¦ $111.3 ¦ 18% ¦ 2%
6,202 ¦ -$1.02 ¦¦ $4.93 ¦ -19.7% ¦ -$6,353 ¦ 56 ¦ $14.29 ¦ 10% ¦ 0%
18,058 ¦ $4.86 ¦¦ $22.8 ¦ 19.9% ¦¦ $87,832 ¦ 83 ¦ $102.9 ¦ 25% ¦ 5%
18,058 ¦ $4.86 ¦¦ $22.8 ¦ 19.9% ¦¦ $87,832 ¦ 83 ¦ $130 ¦¦¦ 0% ¦ 4%
5,877 ¦¦ $22.6 ¦¦ $36.4 ¦ 57.3% ¦ $132,831 ¦ 91 ¦ $313 ¦¦¦ 9% ¦ 10%
14,215 ¦ $14.05 ¦ $62.6 ¦ 21.1% ¦ $199,703 ¦ 96 ¦ $550 ¦¦¦ 20% ¦ 5%
3,421 ¦ -$0.98 ¦¦ $6.38 ¦ -14.2% ¦¦ -$3,342 ¦ 55 ¦ $12.07 ¦ 15% ¦ 0%
8,989 ¦¦ $0.95 ¦ $6.10 ¦¦ 14.5% ¦¦¦ $8,511 ¦ 72 ¦ $11.29 ¦ 0% ¦ 5%
15,378 ¦ $12.29 ¦ $118 ¦¦ 10% ¦ $189,042 ¦¦ 92 ¦ $192.9 ¦ 20% ¦ 3%
10,510 ¦ $2.85 ¦¦ $27.3 ¦ 9.9% ¦¦ $29,973 ¦¦ 84 ¦ $314.2 ¦ 20% ¦ 0%
10,007 ¦ $0.79 ¦¦ $7.88 ¦ 9.4% ¦¦¦ $7,914 ¦¦ 73 ¦ $17.26 ¦ 0% ¦ 3%
1,374 ¦¦ $1.85 ¦¦ $19.0 ¦ 9.1% ¦¦¦ $2,540 ¦¦ 79 ¦ $74.3 ¦¦ 18% ¦ 2%
17,409 ¦ $3.68 ¦¦ $332 ¦¦ 1.1% ¦¦ $64,090 ¦¦ 92 ¦ $547 ¦¦ 24% ¦ 0%
16,448 ¦ $1.95 ¦¦ $16.9 ¦ 19.5% ¦¦ $32,008 ¦ 79 ¦ $215 ¦¦ 10% ¦ 0%
13,481 ¦ $13.36 ¦ $74.1 ¦ 16.9% ¦ $180,080 ¦ 95 ¦ $224 ¦¦ 10% ¦ 5%

So from these numbers there are a couple of packages that offer value to the buyer but most of the packages range from bad to absolutely terrible. Despite this most of the above packages have sold.

In my opinion nobody should be selling high stakes packages with a markup of greater than 20%.

While I was doing this I thought I'd pull up the stats of a couple of players that I think are universally considered to be among the elite and would have large samples.

Games Av.Prof Stake Roi Profit Ability
27,163 $25.59 $147 16.6% $695,165 99 Mement Mori
13,261 $27.48 $181 14.5% $364,361 94 Moorman1

If Moorman or Mement posted in here selling at 20% I expect they would sell out in 2 minutes but I think buyers should be aware that actually they're probably making a bad investment.

Obviously everyone can sell for whatever they want and the only way markups will decrease is if people stop buying. I'd personally love to invest more but almost never do as there never seems to be any packages of value.
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:42 PM   #1150
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Few things
1) You didn't filter for scheduled only so players who have played a hefty SNG schedule are going to have poorly skewed ROIs.
2) You didn't filter for anything resembling recent results, at the very least you should have done since Black Friday.
3) "Fair" markup IMO should be square root of ROI not ROI/2. ROI/2 gives the backer a smaller ROI than the player.
4) Often players are selling to tournaments which are softer than the games they normally play but the buyin is bigger. E.g. I'd rather take someone ABI $55 in the million than the big $55.
5) Agree markups are too high to make good investments in general, some backers like to buy action just for a sweat not because they are making lots of life changing +EV decisions. People also like to play blackjack. There are definitely some diamonds in the rough that come up every now and then and I'd say that live ROIs are still fairly healthy.
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