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Old 03-22-2011, 03:29 AM   #901
thess123
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16.../#post25561375


Package that a few of us are having trouble wrapping our head around :



Having trouble determining what the true markup will be on this among other issues. Love to hear other's thoughts on it.
+1, that's all for now. This is my package FWIW. I feel like my MU is pretty well thought out (there's a post at the bottom indicating numbers), but, imo atleast, an interesting concept that I set up for the sole purpose of limiting investors varaince as well as limiting/eliminating my risk...
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Old 03-22-2011, 10:29 AM   #902
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by thess123 View Post
Here's how this is going to go-I am going to have a $17,500 "package" marked up by 1.4286% rounded to $25,000. 1%=250, which gives you 1% of my entire week. Obviously, this MU is higher than possibly any other on this site, but the difference is that the buyins will be compounding and expanding exponentially. I will not be playing a total of $17,500 tournaments-rather, I will be playing as much as possible from Sunday, March 27 to Sunday, April 3rd, which means much more. A typical day for me consists of 60 or so tournaments, and my goal is to hit that at a minimum of 6 of the days. The buyins will well exceed 25K for the entire week, so do not look at it as a huge markup. On the contrary, the markup is quite small compared to most of these packages that run on a weekly basis (and potentially a negative number...not really sure how I'd figure that out though).
If I understand this correctly, the number 17,500 with 42.86% (I am assuming 1.42% is no what you meant to say) could just as well have been 25.000 with no MU or 1000 with 2500% mark up.

If you play more than $25.000 in buyins like you say you will (you did not specifically state that tournaments after you hit the 25k mark are included, but you did imply so I assume this is the case) you will actually be selling at mark down.

If all of the above is correct it would be in your best interest to play as few tournaments as possible, for buyers it would be best if you played as many as possible.
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Old 03-22-2011, 10:44 AM   #903
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

So basically he needs to win $7500 this week for an investor to break even?

I may be off but I think this is the case? correct me if I am wrong please

*not saying this isn't possible if he plays a lot of buyins etc

also not saying it is a bad investment, just trying to understand it etc
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Old 03-22-2011, 10:53 AM   #904
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

What are the advantages of selling this way? Would be interested to know from the horse's standpoint and the backers standpoint.
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Old 03-22-2011, 11:47 AM   #905
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

There should be some stipulation that you play through over 17,500 in buyins or that package is just straight up robbery. Otherwise, have fun.
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:22 PM   #906
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by mjcace View Post
So basically he needs to win $7500 this week for an investor to break even?

I may be off but I think this is the case? correct me if I am wrong please

*not saying this isn't possible if he plays a lot of buyins etc

also not saying it is a bad investment, just trying to understand it etc
Yes, mjcace....I need to profit $7,500 over the course of the 8 days for us to break even....everything above that is net.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nofx Fan View Post
What are the advantages of selling this way? Would be interested to know from the horse's standpoint and the backers standpoint.
From my point of view:Less transactions, Less fuss, less paperwork, etc. Also limiting my own personal risk as far as people backing out on a day to day basis during what should be a big week. It also helps me keep a sane mind becasue I don't like losing money for my investors on a day to day basis.

Backers:limits variance, plain and simple. Having my action for 8 days instead of 1 is in your best interest.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz View Post
There should be some stipulation that you play through over 17,500 in buyins or that package is just straight up robbery. Otherwise, have fun.
I can add a stipulation. I can also guarantee that there's no way in hell I don't break $17,500 in buyins barring death, etc, in which case all of the money would be returned to the investors and I wouldn't take a 1.42 cut...
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:05 PM   #907
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I would say that without a more precise range for total buyins expected, it is impossible to get an accurate idea of the MU.

17,500 buyins = 1.4286
20,000 buyins = 1.25
22,500 buyins = 1.1111
25,000 buyins = 1.0
> 25,000 buyins = < 1.0

If $25,000+ in buyins is more or less guaranteed, this would be great value (assuming good stats, I haven't actually looked). If the total buyins are anywhere between $17,500 and $25,000+, true MU is obviously impossible to determine beforehand.
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:39 PM   #908
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by ak7062 View Post
I would say that without a more precise range for total buyins expected, it is impossible to get an accurate idea of the MU.

17,500 buyins = 1.4286
20,000 buyins = 1.25
22,500 buyins = 1.1111
25,000 buyins = 1.0
> 25,000 buyins = < 1.0

If $25,000+ in buyins is more or less guaranteed, this would be great value (assuming good stats, I haven't actually looked). If the total buyins are anywhere between $17,500 and $25,000+, true MU is obviously impossible to determine beforehand.

total buyins will smash 25K unless I do not cash for atleast 8K for while playing the first 17.5K.


In other words, I am going to play until I run out of money/the week ends. Chances are, I will be playing much more than 25K-at an absolute, bare minimum, I will be playing $17.5K for the week...
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:52 PM   #909
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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In other words, I am going to play until I run out of money/the week ends.
But why structure it so you can't play at all later in the week if you run bad early in the week.

Just make a google docs spreadsheet with all the events you plan on playing for the 8 days or whatever, mark it up 16%, and sell it. If you don't play something, refund it. Sure, that's something like 60k total, but with enough advance notice and some good results leading up to that week, it'll sell.

I feel uneasy buying packages of unspecified events over an undefined time period. Maybe it's just me.
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:00 PM   #910
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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But why structure it so you can't play at all later in the week if you run bad early in the week.

Just make a google docs spreadsheet with all the events you plan on playing for the 8 days or whatever, mark it up 16%, and sell it. If you don't play something, refund it. Sure, that's something like 60k total, but with enough advance notice and some good results leading up to that week, it'll sell.

I feel uneasy buying packages of unspecified events over an undefined time period. Maybe it's just me.
Reasons against selling it like you stated:
a) the obvious answer is that selling shares at 1%=$600 is, in my opinion, ludicrous. You guys really want to ship some random internet poker player 60K? Didn't think so....
b) I'm going to be playing for essentially a week straight. I really don't want to be bothered with the small details like charting what I'm playing/not playing when I should be focusing on playing
c)I really don't think a week is enough of a notice.
d) I took a huge hit this weekend because too many people backed out of shares at the last moment that said they were going to buy. If it was only like 2-5%, ok. It was closer to 25%, and it crushed my roll in all honesty, so I really wouldn't be able to fund my part there if I went with the 60K package...


In my opinion, the rewards of being able to buy 2-3 times as many shares for the same price far exceeds the risk of me going broke. Just my opinion though
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:07 PM   #911
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

thess i think i understand how you came up with the idea for this package and you do have all good intentions however when i see someone doing something new in the poker/gambling world i always wonder "why hasn't someone else thought of this and done it yet?" and I think that there must be some good answers to this questions and that is why I personally have not seen it done this way before. If I am wrong and this has been done before please correct me and show the results. that being said here are the reasons why I don't like this package:

1. It's too expensive for me

2. If i did have an infinite roll for staking i would really prefer to just pay for all the buy ins with ~ 1.1 markup even if it was like 50k.

3. the ROR is just too great and this package does not absolutely guarantee that you play the sunday majors on triple sunday on april 3rd.

4. If you lose, the investors may not be happy and this may lead them to invest less in you in the future. You gotta think about this for your own interests of course and is none of my business really cause i know you are a baller and i have def proffited off your past packages.

Positives to this packages:

1. if you bink a couple or a few tournies early its all gravy.

2. this could be a hugely good deal for a big investor

3. there is lots of time to cancel this idea and sell each day piece by piece


I hope you think about this stuff and more as I think youve got the stuff man. I wish you the best thess and i hope your future packages enter my price range.
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:20 PM   #912
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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thess i think i understand how you came up with the idea for this package and you do have all good intentions however when i see someone doing something new in the poker/gambling world i always wonder "why hasn't someone else thought of this and done it yet?" and I think that there must be some good answers to this questions and that is why I personally have not seen it done this way before. If I am wrong and this has been done before please correct me and show the results. that being said here are the reasons why I don't like this package:

1. It's too expensive for me

2. If i did have an infinite roll for staking i would really prefer to just pay for all the buy ins with ~ 1.1 markup even if it was like 50k.

3. the ROR is just too great and this package does not absolutely guarantee that you play the sunday majors on triple sunday on april 3rd.

4. If you lose, the investors may not be happy and this may lead them to invest less in you in the future. You gotta think about this for your own interests of course and is none of my business really cause i know you are a baller and i have def proffited off your past packages.

Positives to this packages:

1. if you bink a couple or a few tournies early its all gravy.

2. this could be a hugely good deal for a big investor

3. there is lots of time to cancel this idea and sell each day piece by piece


I hope you think about this stuff and more as I think youve got the stuff man. I wish you the best thess and i hope your future packages enter my price range.

I love playing devils advocate, so here it goes....

First off, I'm pretty sure this has been done before, I'm just reworking it to the point where it doesn't look the same. Like its the exact same thing/similiar to others, I've just ****ed around with it so much that it might look ugly as a whole because it isn't as fine tuned as it should be.

Point by point now
1. Maybe I can open up smaller %s, PM me

2. The biggest problem with this is that non of us have infinite bankrolls, and I need to open this up so it sells, not so that the one person out of every 100 that wants a peice can have it like that.

3. The RoR is far and away my biggest problem with this, and you're absolutely right. But I still have the first sunday, and I basically could run like **** for the first three days and cash nothing-and still have money left over to load the 4th day. Now if I can break even for even 2 of the first few days, I'm almost guaranteed of playing on that Sunday. Nothing's
guaranteed, though, obviously.

4. It's a risk I'm willing to take, becasue I feel like this is going to be insanely profitable for all involved. In the off chance I lose...I'll start up again with much smaller packages.

positives
1. Exactly the plan. Hit big early, freeroll the rest of the week.

2. I feel it is or I wouldn't be offering it like this. I'm going to crush $25K buyins unless I cash for basically nothing in the first 4 days, in which case it would be a mark down (I think)

3. meh. I might do that if it doesnt sell, but I'm in love with this idea lol.

Thanks for the well wishes as well man, I hope this cleared a few things up...
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:00 PM   #913
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

looking for some advice from a buyer's perspective on selling packages here. not sure if this the right place to post, if not feel free to move.

ive sold quite a few packages here lately and my standard has been to just sell a small package of roughly 6 mtt's that i know i will be playing. i am by choice not a mass multi-tabler and in general, except for sundays or days when there are a lot of really good tourneys going(or the recent multi-entry thing), i try to limit myself to ~6 tables at a time. So my packages have basically been just the first 6(and imo best/biggest tourneys) that i know i will be playing that night. when i bust 1 tourney then i will add more to keep myself at 4-6 tables as the night progresses, playing these additional tourneys on my own dime.

I have no problem selling action in these additional tourneys, in fact i would probably prefer to, but in order to do so the schedule would have to be open/ambiguous and "over-priced" up front. i would probably just have to list any of the later tourneys i might play, turning what was initially a 6 tourney package into a 15-20 tourney package with the understanding that many of the tourneys would be canceled and refunded in most cases. my question is: would most buyers prefer the smaller set schedule of 6 tourneys package, or a higher up front cost, but more action and presumably less variance 15-20 tourney package, where maybe only 10-12 would be played with a higher refund %? maybe this is a dumb question but just not sure how much the up-front cost influences buyer's investment choices(even if they know they will likely be getting a higher refund %) and also how much a set schedule vs. a somewhat ambiguous schedule would influence the investment decision.

any advice appreciated. thx in advance.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:49 PM   #914
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by phatcat View Post
looking for some advice from a buyer's perspective on selling packages here. not sure if this the right place to post, if not feel free to move.

ive sold quite a few packages here lately and my standard has been to just sell a small package of roughly 6 mtt's that i know i will be playing. i am by choice not a mass multi-tabler and in general, except for sundays or days when there are a lot of really good tourneys going(or the recent multi-entry thing), i try to limit myself to ~6 tables at a time. So my packages have basically been just the first 6(and imo best/biggest tourneys) that i know i will be playing that night. when i bust 1 tourney then i will add more to keep myself at 4-6 tables as the night progresses, playing these additional tourneys on my own dime.

I have no problem selling action in these additional tourneys, in fact i would probably prefer to, but in order to do so the schedule would have to be open/ambiguous and "over-priced" up front. i would probably just have to list any of the later tourneys i might play, turning what was initially a 6 tourney package into a 15-20 tourney package with the understanding that many of the tourneys would be canceled and refunded in most cases. my question is: would most buyers prefer the smaller set schedule of 6 tourneys package, or a higher up front cost, but more action and presumably less variance 15-20 tourney package, where maybe only 10-12 would be played with a higher refund %? maybe this is a dumb question but just not sure how much the up-front cost influences buyer's investment choices(even if they know they will likely be getting a higher refund %) and also how much a set schedule vs. a somewhat ambiguous schedule would influence the investment decision.

any advice appreciated. thx in advance.
my advice phat is if you want to sell more just "estimate" the tourneys you'll be playing and pull some back if tables get too be too many. then just refund the buyin + markup.

the other approach would be a "bankroll" approach where you say you'll play about $X between certain times at a specified markup with some indication of what tourneys you know you'll be playing...just try to make sure you don't spend more than the roll.

the first way is more typical in my experience and lots of people "refund" unsused buyins. as a frequent buyer, I LOVE it when a horse decides he's playing too many tables and just refunds the buyin -- it means he's focused on maximizing his EV.

edit: and to answer your question about whether we prefer smaller numbers of tourneys vs. more tourneys and less share, I would like thats buyer-dependent. I just want max-EV -- some horses are great a zillion tables...others like yourself (and me) aren't. maximize YOUR EV and your stakers will be happy.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:44 AM   #915
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

so...is marketplace dead or what?? doubt ive ever had trouble selling packages before. what is going on???
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:12 AM   #916
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

nice question
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:17 AM   #917
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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nice question
+1 (maybe my packages just suck though, or are confusing, or something, dunno)
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:06 AM   #918
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I think all the bad packages and bad press has finally scared away a lot of the investors. I had some issues a few weeks ago not selling out a package and I took that to mean there was less money in the market.

Sly> You are selling action into tournaments way above your ABI. It's hard to convince people that you are +ev even if you are.

thess> Starting out with such a confusing package may have put alot of people off who haven't even looked at your newer package.
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:12 AM   #919
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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I think all the bad packages and bad press has finally scared away a lot of the investors. I had some issues a few weeks ago not selling out a package and I took that to mean there was less money in the market.

Sly> You are selling action into tournaments way above your ABI. It's hard to convince people that you are +ev even if you are.

thess> Starting out with such a confusing package may have put alot of people off who haven't even looked at your newer package.

I think you're right...with that being said, I was having trouble selling out the few packages before, and this was right after FTing 3 tournaments last wednesday in a package...While I'm never been actively buying/selling packages before now, I've definetly been monitoring this forum for potential investments, and it seemed like so many packages were selling out.
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Old 03-24-2011, 03:32 AM   #920
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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I think all the bad packages and bad press has finally scared away a lot of the investors. I had some issues a few weeks ago not selling out a package and I took that to mean there was less money in the market.

Sly> You are selling action into tournaments way above your ABI. It's hard to convince people that you are +ev even if you are.
This may be true. But I have heaps of experience from higher buyins including a handful of fts in 109s and multiple deep runs in others. I used to play up to 109s and majors when I was backed but I have been playing heaps lower ABI after leaving my backer just because im not a fan of variance. Guess I should make that clear in my package next time.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:41 AM   #921
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

how the f was this guy selling 25k packages anyway lol.

when it comes down to it over the past 3 months he has an 40% roi with an av buyin of $7.36,if you look at the distributed details THAT isn't all that hard to figure out.

he's averaging 10 tournies a day but claims to play upwards of 60...

on full tilt once again over the past 3 months his av buyin is around $8 and an roi of -minus 67% but he wants to play a bunch of 30r,50s and 100's.

pfft no wonder the market place is losing investors,i saw it months ago all these fish selling action at mu.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:00 AM   #922
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Which guy specifically?

Last edited by Bren; 03-24-2011 at 07:00 AM. Reason: nice location
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:05 PM   #923
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Re: WSOP (venetian, caesars, etc) 2011 Guidelines

I wonder what the community would think the MU should be on the following online package for player X, with similar results to mine..

11- $55 DNGs
8- 24+2 42ks
3- Nightly 100ks
1- Wed Quarter Million
1- Sunday Million with WCOOP structure
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:12 PM   #924
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Re: WSOP (venetian, caesars, etc) 2011 Guidelines

1.3
1.3
1.05
1
1.3 or higher
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:28 PM   #925
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Re: WSOP (venetian, caesars, etc) 2011 Guidelines

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1.3
1.3
1.05
1
1.3 or higher
level?
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