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***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*** ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions***

12-25-2010 , 04:42 PM
Sulgin I'm over it but I feel I have to defend myself against someone who is intentionally trying to hurt my livelihood as a professional.
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12-26-2010 , 04:49 AM
So far every time I have seen somebody call out a package for markup issues... It was already selling quickly/sold out, markup of less than .3 and at least a decent reputable player.

I am not a big fan of these markup mercenaries showing up without an absurdly good reason, if ever. If you think its ridiculous, take a breath and ask someone you respect for an opinion or PM a mod.
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12-26-2010 , 03:16 PM
I am going to be giving a freeroll bankroll to a friend to try and help him out. So its going to be a stake with no makeup. I would therefore deserve a bigger share right? What would a good split % be for a situation like this? thanks

edit: got the answer i was looking for, thanks

Last edited by suchsickaments; 12-26-2010 at 03:23 PM.
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12-27-2010 , 09:48 AM
Hi, regarding the MU and playing for live events... A friend of mine referred me to this site recently (guess my head was in the sand not knowing it existing, my bad) so I have to wait before I can ask for staking which is a great rule I think even thou it sucks when you want to continue to play and want to go up another level in stake.

So a few questions:

I've had to really focus more on poker recently because of slow down in other work, so now I'm working hard online, giving my current stats:

http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...7B744.html?t=2

what would you consider a fair MU for myself??

Also, if I was to play for a live event in a stake, whould you give a % of the prize package as a return or % of what ever happens in the live event, what is the norm? or do you give the staker the option? I won for example my 2nd PCA yesterday, so would of that been just cash back when I would of posted it?

last question, how does one get market approved? what is the proper procedure.

As for my specific take on MU, I feel that a larger MU is deserving on a larger tournament because the player could be playing for 8+ hours if he runs deep and you are paying a % of his time as well

Many thanks in advance, Merry belated Christmas and Happy New Year

Domenic
aka MrP0P
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12-27-2010 , 03:11 PM
was considering in buying a share from this guy until I saw the 1.2 markup
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...d-high-946611/
but isn't his markup a little bit high?
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12-27-2010 , 04:28 PM
there are so many awful things to invest in, and people just keep doing it. (i am not talking about that specific package, because i didnt feel like looking up all the relevant info).


there are people selling mtt sng packages with like 20% markup (and more) and they are selling out really fast. it really is absurd.



but, if people want to invest, more power to them. i used to troll threads like that, but dont anymore. people can do what they want with their money.
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12-28-2010 , 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snakeman221
Hello I have recently started using the marketplace for buying shares in tournament packages and have also requested to be approved for selling shares, aka marketplaced approved. When reading the rules I saw that you need a account "in good standing". Now I have a coupple infractions for posting some bs in nvg, will that affect my application?
bump
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12-28-2010 , 12:31 PM
This question may be silly, but I am curious...

Do people ever run Cash Game Stakes?

I know full time stakes are offered in the "staking" section, but I'm wondering is people ever sell shares?


Thanks for any insight on this,

Brenden
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12-28-2010 , 03:59 PM
Snake, there are several reqeusts a day for marketplace approval, we'll get to yours in time. Thanks.

P.S. We do look at many factors, including profile infractions.
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12-28-2010 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish491
was considering in buying a share from this guy until I saw the 1.2 markup
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...d-high-946611/
but isn't his markup a little bit high?
i'm a girl. and really, 1.2 is just pretty standard, my results are good, if you don't want to invest, no one's forcing you to. all of my results are out in the open, look it up, if you think i'm not warranted to do so, don't buy it. also, i'm predominantly a live 2/5 cash game player with people who can vouch for me and my skills.
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12-29-2010 , 07:30 AM
Wow at recent posts/topics/and links. That is all.
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01-04-2011 , 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azan
wow of all the awful overpriced package on the forum to post a link to this is the one you chose as too high mark up? At any given hour in the first page you can easily find multiple packages with much worse value than this.

Why would you chose this example?
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01-04-2011 , 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tufat23
basically what bobboufl11 said explains online and how people are charging super high markup.
Agree completely. Online mark ups are through the roof. Sellers seem to be pushing the limits here and value is diminishing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tufat23
live almost everyone needs to charge about 10% less to be real. just cos someone has live experience and beats poker in general, doesnt mean you arent purchasing a a fish at 1.25
Disagree completely. Have you played any live tournament poker lately? Its like a time warp. The game is stuck at least 5 years behind the online game. I just played a live series for the first time after grinding online for 5 years. I had minimal live experience so I charged much less mark up then I do online. After the first two tournaments it was obv I sold myself at a huge bargain. A 10 dollar MTT online competition wise is about equivalent to a 300 dollar tournament live.
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01-05-2011 , 10:41 AM
Also love the guys who put up a package with a high mark up and then a huge screen shot of one of there sn's. You still have to take the time to opr their other sn's but you already know that they are going to be huge losers on these.

Since this is misleading and time wasting what would be others thoughts about commenting on this in the thread? It would at least save others a min in there day from looking up the other sn's.
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01-24-2011 , 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421
if people want to invest, more power to them. i used to troll threads like that, but dont anymore. people can do what they want with their money.
I totally get this (and it's probably true) but I'm feeling existential today. So just for the sake of discussion:

Why is there a stigma in the marketplace that trolling threads is so awful? When there's a seller who's clearly and knowingly ripping off inexperienced investor's (or unknowingly overcharging because they have delusions of greatness) why can't forum regulars intervene? Obviously there's nothing stopping us, but why is our environment such that "trollers" get a bad rep?

Whenever I see an obviously unfair mu/cut (which has quickly become a daily ritual) I too consider "trolling" and my thought-process usually comes down to a quick cost/benefit analysis:

Benefit
1) It'll encourage level-1-thinking investors to not invest.
2) If it doesn't, maybe they'll consider expanding their research stage beyond the single-click of an OPR hyper-link.
3) It might have symbolic value to:
a. Onlookers - who may think twice before charging 1.22 on 50-set of $12 180's, or
b. The Seller - who's now forced to choose between fabricating a last-minute excuse for having to cancel his unsellable package or having to run out the clock in a forum where 95% of BAP's sell-out.
4) The failure of the seller. It sounds cruel, but hear me out... Either they're:
a. Intentionally exploiting the goodwill of others who lack the experience or capacity to know any better for their own financial gain. If this is the case who cares if we troll their thread? In even the bleakest of outlooks we'd remain the lesser of two evils. Or:
b. They actually believe they deserve this unattainable MU. In this case we're probably doing them a favor. I choose to believe that most seller's don't aim to rip off their investors and (when made aware) they'll draw a line between right and wrong.

Cost
1) If I post a troll comment it'll damage my rep in the marketplace.


I've never thought about it to this extent, but this is roughly what I consider when I'm tempted to troll a ridiculously -EV package. Without exception, cost is always > benefit. I settle on the idea that it's their money. I'm not gaining anything personally by trolling, and by electing to not troll my rep isn't touched. I take comfort in the fact that it really isn't any of my business. Honestly it's easier this way. After all, who wants to be seen as the guy who trolls everyone's threads? Maybe I'm exaggerating its negative effect on one's rep, but it doesn't help.

I guess I'm asking why it isn't perfectly okay for a reg to simply state "65/35 is too much for mtsng's" or "1.22 is unattainable for you in $12 180's". It doesn't have to be a whole production. Look no further than 2+2's cash/tournament forums to see reg's who openly criticize the OP. Shouldn't this be even more of a factor here where people thoughtlessly ship thousands of dollars to relative strangers?

Like I said, I'm in a really existential mood today and I'm basically just typing everything that pops into my head so there's no need to dissect everything I've said; I'm well aware of the counter-arguments. But a lot of this is unanimously agreed upon - there's tons of new investors who are (to put it kindly) liberal with their money. Many sellers are charging absurd markups because.. well why not? they're getting paid. And having the attitude of "it's their money, it's none of my business, and why get involved" is perfectly measured, entirely reasonable, and +EV from an individualist standpoint. Maybe it's just not worth it.

Or maybe it'd improve the MP if those of us who understand value decide to troll a little more often.
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01-24-2011 , 08:59 PM
Can someone give me a run down with br management when staking.

Just say i got 10k for example, a seller is playing 10 tourneys and you wanna buy a stake which is x% for $50. will you only invest like $50 (200 buy ins) on a stake or will you invest more since he will be playing 10 tourneys?

i hope i explained this ok. alright cheers.
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01-25-2011 , 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421
there are so many awful things to invest in, and people just keep doing it. (i am not talking about that specific package, because i didnt feel like looking up all the relevant info).


there are people selling mtt sng packages with like 20% markup (and more) and they are selling out really fast. it really is absurd.



but, if people want to invest, more power to them. i used to troll threads like that, but dont anymore. people can do what they want with their money.
yup I was pretty much one of the top ten most active people in the buying shares thread in 2010 from like april-november but I am pretty much in retirement now other than if I happen to see a great deal from someone I also know is trustworthy. I used to be on this forum all day and at the begining there wasnt as many buyers back in the early parts of 2010 so I was able to pick up lots of good deals and many at no markup. Now there are tons of people waiting to buy action on these forums all day and the markups skyrocketed are to the point where it is a negative sum market in my opinion. I.E. if you purchased shares in every package you would be down. It should not be this way, in one of the highest variance investments (mtts) there are the buyers should have a theoretical +roi of approximately 10% in any package, not the about -5% it is now.
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01-25-2011 , 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigVach
I totally get this (and it's probably true) but I'm feeling existential today. So just for the sake of discussion:

Why is there a stigma in the marketplace that trolling threads is so awful? When there's a seller who's clearly and knowingly ripping off inexperienced investor's (or unknowingly overcharging because they have delusions of greatness) why can't forum regulars intervene? Obviously there's nothing stopping us, but why is our environment such that "trollers" get a bad rep?

Whenever I see an obviously unfair mu/cut (which has quickly become a daily ritual) I too consider "trolling" and my thought-process usually comes down to a quick cost/benefit analysis:

Benefit
1) It'll encourage level-1-thinking investors to not invest.
2) If it doesn't, maybe they'll consider expanding their research stage beyond the single-click of an OPR hyper-link.
3) It might have symbolic value to:
a. Onlookers - who may think twice before charging 1.22 on 50-set of $12 180's, or
b. The Seller - who's now forced to choose between fabricating a last-minute excuse for having to cancel his unsellable package or having to run out the clock in a forum where 95% of BAP's sell-out.
4) The failure of the seller. It sounds cruel, but hear me out... Either they're:
a. Intentionally exploiting the goodwill of others who lack the experience or capacity to know any better for their own financial gain. If this is the case who cares if we troll their thread? In even the bleakest of outlooks we'd remain the lesser of two evils. Or:
b. They actually believe they deserve this unattainable MU. In this case we're probably doing them a favor. I choose to believe that most seller's don't aim to rip off their investors and (when made aware) they'll draw a line between right and wrong.

Cost
1) If I post a troll comment it'll damage my rep in the marketplace.


I've never thought about it to this extent, but this is roughly what I consider when I'm tempted to troll a ridiculously -EV package. Without exception, cost is always > benefit. I settle on the idea that it's their money. I'm not gaining anything personally by trolling, and by electing to not troll my rep isn't touched. I take comfort in the fact that it really isn't any of my business. Honestly it's easier this way. After all, who wants to be seen as the guy who trolls everyone's threads? Maybe I'm exaggerating its negative effect on one's rep, but it doesn't help.

I guess I'm asking why it isn't perfectly okay for a reg to simply state "65/35 is too much for mtsng's" or "1.22 is unattainable for you in $12 180's". It doesn't have to be a whole production. Look no further than 2+2's cash/tournament forums to see reg's who openly criticize the OP. Shouldn't this be even more of a factor here where people thoughtlessly ship thousands of dollars to relative strangers?

Like I said, I'm in a really existential mood today and I'm basically just typing everything that pops into my head so there's no need to dissect everything I've said; I'm well aware of the counter-arguments. But a lot of this is unanimously agreed upon - there's tons of new investors who are (to put it kindly) liberal with their money. Many sellers are charging absurd markups because.. well why not? they're getting paid. And having the attitude of "it's their money, it's none of my business, and why get involved" is perfectly measured, entirely reasonable, and +EV from an individualist standpoint. Maybe it's just not worth it.

Or maybe it'd improve the MP if those of us who understand value decide to troll a little more often.

As one of these 'new investors' who doesn't want to get ripped off, would you have some tips for spotting unfairly high MU, or low/negative ev packages to invest in?
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01-26-2011 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
As one of these 'new investors' who doesn't want to get ripped off, would you have some tips for spotting unfairly high MU, or low/negative ev packages to invest in?
pm sent
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01-31-2011 , 10:46 AM
Something I’ve noticed (and invested in on rare occasion) is that the standard for a 1k Monday or Super Tuesday is ~19% MU. What do you beleive what is the maximum ROI in such a tourney? It is on a weekday, has a high percentage of regs, and is a 1k buy in.
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01-31-2011 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clockworkorange89
Something Iíve noticed (and invested in on rare occasion) is that the standard for a 1k Monday or Super Tuesday is ~19% MU. What do you beleive what is the maximum ROI in such a tourney? It is on a weekday, has a high percentage of regs, and is a 1k buy in.
Max ROI is hard to say, but people who need to sell action aren't higher then 20%.
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01-31-2011 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
Max ROI is hard to say, but people who need to sell action aren't higher then 20%.
I agree for the most part. It is especially hard to define one's true roi in such a tourney. 55s, 109s, 216s, etc. are daily, whereas 1ks are generally 1-2 per week +FTOPS/WCOOOP/UBOC etc. Clearly a strong high/mid stakes player as a good edge edge over a 1k buy in ftops field, but it would be interesting to see any such player over a long stretch of 1k mondays/super tuesdays.

Thanks for the response, it would be interesting to here other thoughts on potential long term roi in such tournaments.
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01-31-2011 , 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clockworkorange89
I agree for the most part. It is especially hard to define one's true roi in such a tourney. 55s, 109s, 216s, etc. are daily, whereas 1ks are generally 1-2 per week +FTOPS/WCOOOP/UBOC etc. Clearly a strong high/mid stakes player as a good edge edge over a 1k buy in ftops field, but it would be interesting to see any such player over a long stretch of 1k mondays/super tuesdays.

Thanks for the response, it would be interesting to here other thoughts on potential long term roi in such tournaments.
meh I think those single 1k packages are just a fun chance for investors to gamble for cheap in a good player. even if an investor doesn't want to admit it, if they rationally thought through it they'd probably come to that conclusion. nothing wrong with that in the least, it's fun to invest $120 in someone and have 10% of the biggest mtt of the night.
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01-31-2011 , 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdomeski
meh I think those single 1k packages are just a fun chance for investors to gamble for cheap in a good player. even if an investor doesn't want to admit it, if they rationally thought through it they'd probably come to that conclusion. nothing wrong with that in the least, it's fun to invest $120 in someone and have 10% of the biggest mtt of the night.
+1 ... I also think this is the case on many Sunday packages etc...

Which ultimately drives mark ups higher but it's simply supply/demand.
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02-01-2011 , 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdomeski
meh I think those single 1k packages are just a fun chance for investors to gamble for cheap in a good player. even if an investor doesn't want to admit it, if they rationally thought through it they'd probably come to that conclusion. nothing wrong with that in the least, it's fun to invest $120 in someone and have 10% of the biggest mtt of the night.
-1 investing is about getting the most +ev investments. You could just buy 70% of someone in like $150 tourney and your possible payouts would be simliar to buying 10% of someone in a 1k, except you would actually be making a +ev investment.
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