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Old 10-28-2010, 09:15 PM   #701
Tourbound68
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by snewman06 View Post
First off - Tourbound (Michael) is a credit to the marketplace overall. His BAPs are always extremely well-run and well-organized. He makes every effort to please his investors and that is a big reason why his offers sell well IMO (along with being a +EV MTT player).

However - I understand Raconteur's point.....this Sunday, you are selling a package of Sunday action in some of the tougher (lesser ROI for anyone including you) tourneys of the day. And it is not just a BR issue for your backer. You are selling the $215/6 Second Chance and Mulligan, but not the $215/6 Sunday Mil and $750K. I think everyone that plays online even a a little knows that the Sunday Mil and FTP 750K are much higher ROI tourneys due to softer fields. So to Raconteur's point, your backer is cherry picking your schedule and leaving the tougher and lower ROI tourneys to be sold on 2+2.

Now, I am not saying that the BAP you put out for Sunday is not a good investment....that is really not for me to say (nor do I have an informed opinion really), I am just saying that we are kind of getting the cake without the icing, so to speak.


Please note that these comments are coming from someone who has bought action from Tourbound on several occasions....and will likely do so again.

First Paragraph- Thank you

Second Paragraph(bold): You couldn't be more wrong.. The fact of the matter is, (even though it is my personal business, which i don't like divulging publicly) My backer will let me play any FO MTT 260>.. The end..

But, he is a great guy and will let me play some tournaments on my own.... Obv. he wants me to play the "best" sundays for him, that is only natural... But he allows me to pick some other tourneys like the 2nd Chance and Mulligan and 75k to play on my own on sundays.. Even the 50 cubed, (that i just finished 2nd in two weeks ago under him).. There is a lot of value in these tournaments, hence me wanting to play them on my own.. By me doing this it accomplishes a couple of things for me personally.. It A: keeps my Sunday BI # down considerable in regards to my backing deal and whatever Make Up i might be in, and B: allows me to play in 2 great tournaments 100r and sunday 500, while still having the value of 2nd chances (50k+ for first in both, and soft fields for 216's) nightly 75k (20k+1st soft sunday field) and other tournaments I can choose to allow me to still "earn" on sunday whether or not I am in MU or not..

And don't forget, I put my own money into my packages as well... It would behoove me to do so if I thought the tournaments i was playing i was +ev in..

So is he "making" me play the 4 best sunday tournaments for him.. Of course, it would be ridiculous for any backer not to.. But on the other hand, he is also letting me play some tournaments with high EV on my own, just because he is mad cool..


No hard feelings about any of this, i love a good debate on just about anything tbh
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:24 AM   #702
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Tourbound68 View Post

No hard feelings about any of this, i love a good debate on just about anything tbh

Glad you said this.....I also like a friendly debate.

We have slightly divergent opinions here, but tbh, as long as investors are aware of the situation, then it is their decision as to whether to buy. I see both of your current online packages are selling quick as usual.....

GL this weekend, I am not playing at all, so feel free to bink all the Sunday majors.
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Old 10-29-2010, 07:16 AM   #703
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Wow, never acknowledged this thread before, but since its a slow night regarding new interesting packages and i still cant sleep , i read through the recent pages a bit and am pleasantly surprised...

Raconteur sums up the difficulties with investing in multiple packages and railing them pretty accurat in post #689. It would def help to have some kind of standarized spreadsheet introduced, but I also can see problems with that since some package structures are quite unique.
One easy first improvement imo would be if all sellers at least sum up the basic facts of their BAP in the first post of their rail thread. Its really nice to open up a rail and see right away, what % i have, the package total, and what tournies are included (so even with lots of investments i just need to scroll up in the individual rail thread to get the facts again).

Another thing someone already mentioned that i'd strongly support would be the general commitment to mark ur thread 'sold-out' or 'reserves only' in the lobby, so if i'm gone for some time i dont need to open all recent threads even though more than half of them are normally already booked to the max.


Just my 2 cents...


P.S.: Also have a question that i'm unsure of myself: me as an investor should i rather prefer ~20% mark-up or a 80/20 deal after stakeback on the average package being sold here [i know 'bout doggz helpful math examples, just am unsure what on average (given varying package sizes, length of BAP, ROI-expectancy,...) will give me better results]? Whats ur guys opinion on that...
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:43 PM   #704
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

80/20 = 25% markup
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:48 PM   #705
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I have a suggestion which is already implemented in other subforums of 2+2..

Why don't divide the Staking forums by stakes? Low/Medium/High or Low-Mid/High, just something that would bring some tidyness to the staking forums!

My 2%
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:28 PM   #706
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

A question and I appreciate all help.

I am looking to find a staker for a run at SNE next year. I'm not familiar with how 2+2 does it, but have been on parttimepoker.com for a year or so and have written up a BAP (buy a piece) ad on there with my projected #'s.

If I want to put that up on 2+2's marketplace to gauge interest and have some experienced stakers critique it where would I post that?

I have been a member here longer than 6 months and have marketplace privileges. Thanks.
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:07 AM   #707
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Pollce State View Post
A question and I appreciate all help.

I am looking to find a staker for a run at SNE next year. I'm not familiar with how 2+2 does it, but have been on parttimepoker.com for a year or so and have written up a BAP (buy a piece) ad on there with my projected #'s.

If I want to put that up on 2+2's marketplace to gauge interest and have some experienced stakers critique it where would I post that?

I have been a member here longer than 6 months and have marketplace privileges. Thanks.
Could probably just post it in the Staking-Selling Shares sub-forum. It will get the most attention by the relevant folks there. Be sure to put something in the title like "NOT A BAP" so that people looking for BAP's don't waste their time. I don't think the mods would have a problem with this.

Other option would be just to post it in this thread, although I'm not sure what type of responses you will or won't get.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:58 PM   #708
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I'm new to markup and just getting my head around how it works. Am i right in saying that if someone sells 100% of his action, then he has no interest in how he does as he receives none of the profits, he would just receive his markup? Not seen anyone selling 100% (some ads don't say how much they want to sell though) but just wanted to know if i got it right.
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Old 11-03-2010, 06:59 AM   #709
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Invertible View Post
I'm new to markup and just getting my head around how it works. Am i right in saying that if someone sells 100% of his action, then he has no interest in how he does as he receives none of the profits, he would just receive his markup? Not seen anyone selling 100% (some ads don't say how much they want to sell though) but just wanted to know if i got it right.
Spot on! If u want to be even smarter than that, u could sell >100% to maximize ur profit as a seller (attention: do NOT make ur package profitable)...

Seriously though: the most common thing here is to either sell a %-amount <100% as a specific mark-up (and buy some shares urself) or sell 100% of ur action at no mark-up but get a cut of potential profits (e.g. 80-20 after stakeback, meaning first the buyins r paid back to the investors in full, the rest (=profit) is split 80-20 in investors favor)

Hope that helps...
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Old 11-05-2010, 10:53 PM   #710
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by raconteur View Post
I have a couple of suggestions for the smoother operation of the online share selling forum. Admittedly their primary purpose is to make my own life/participation easier, but anyway...

1) full disclosure

...

2) standardised posts for selling action

...
I'm curious exactly what you are looking for in regards to your first statement. The past two weekends I have sold action to the higher stakes tournaments but kept my own action for all of the rebuys (up to $11+R and $22^3) I play as well as any freezeouts below $109. Should I really be explicitly stating that I plan to play these in my posts?

I completely agree that there should be some sort of standardized formatting for selling action on the site.
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:13 PM   #711
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
I'm curious exactly what you are looking for in regards to your first statement. The past two weekends I have sold action to the higher stakes tournaments but kept my own action for all of the rebuys (up to $11+R and $22^3) I play as well as any freezeouts below $109. Should I really be explicitly stating that I plan to play these in my posts?

I completely agree that there should be some sort of standardized formatting for selling action on the site.
yes, many people were upset when they search the person they are buying shares in and find them deep in a tounrey only to find out later they had no action in them, and that these tables were taking away focus from the ones they had invested in.
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Old 11-06-2010, 05:34 AM   #712
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by hoodskier View Post
I'm curious exactly what you are looking for in regards to your first statement. The past two weekends I have sold action to the higher stakes tournaments but kept my own action for all of the rebuys (up to $11+R and $22^3) I play as well as any freezeouts below $109. Should I really be explicitly stating that I plan to play these in my posts?
In my opinion, yes, for the reasons given in the first reply to your post. as a person, its annoying, and as an investor, its a point of concern. Admittedly, its less so in your example, where, if i knew the hypothetical "you" enough from prev packages or whatever, it might actually make me more inclined to buy, since I'd know you have your own money and dont mind risking it backing your own ability. If you werent playing too many tables at a time, I could see it actually being a selling point (although only in some cases, and it would still, imo, have to be disclosed in your OP). The one difference between your example and the situation that motivated my post is that you would be withholding action from tournaments you're playing simultaneously, of lower buyins. In that situation, action was witheld from tournaments occuring simultaneously, of the same buyin level.
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Old 11-06-2010, 05:45 AM   #713
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I think if you are playing any games, tournament/cash/whatever then you should mention it. To be honest in the past I have probably accidentally forgotten to do so but I make a conscious effort to now. I think "yes, many people were upset when they search the person they are buying shares in and find them deep in a tounrey only to find out later they had no action in them, and that these tables were taking away focus from the ones they had invested in." sums it up well. And yeah if you sell action to some of the same buy in levels at the same time but not the other it should be mentioned imo.

Anyway I wanted to ask, would it be normal for me to sell shares to the 3,000FPP turbo takedown? I did a quick search and only found people including this as a freeroll in large packages, but if I say sold to this only would it be fine? Provided I made it clear what this was, and what rate I was charging for the FPPs etc.

E.g. 3000 at 1.6c/FPP for $47.15 + x mark up or whatever. Don't want to get into details of what rate is fair and what mark up is fair but just confirming this is fine, I assume it is but I realise it hasn't been done before, or if it has very rarely.
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Old 11-06-2010, 02:13 PM   #714
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by raconteur View Post
In my opinion, yes, for the reasons given in the first reply to your post. as a person, its annoying, and as an investor, its a point of concern. Admittedly, its less so in your example, where, if i knew the hypothetical "you" enough from prev packages or whatever, it might actually make me more inclined to buy, since I'd know you have your own money and dont mind risking it backing your own ability. If you werent playing too many tables at a time, I could see it actually being a selling point (although only in some cases, and it would still, imo, have to be disclosed in your OP). The one difference between your example and the situation that motivated my post is that you would be withholding action from tournaments you're playing simultaneously, of lower buyins. In that situation, action was witheld from tournaments occuring simultaneously, of the same buyin level.
Alright, I guess I will be doing so in the future then. I assumed that it was implied by the wording of my post but I guess it should be more clear. Another thing is I kind of assume (maybe erroneously) is that people buying shares are doing their homework and checking my statistics and range of buy-ins that I play. I think that would make it pretty obvious that I play more than the 5-9 MTTs I have on my package during a Sunday (or any day I grind for that matter).

However, I also agree with the post saying it's pretty asinine to think that a horse will only grind a schedule of 8 MTTs on a Sunday because they are selling action for them. That assumption seems much worse to me than a seller assuming buyers will not have a problem with them playing other tournaments.
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Old 11-06-2010, 08:53 PM   #715
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I don't think it's "obvious" given that some investors aren't necessary experienced members who know you well (I don't know you, maybe you are fairly well known and therefore "obviously" mass multi table)
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:17 PM   #716
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

how many posts do you need to start a new thread in this specific forum? I am wanting to sell about 50% of two of the upcoming PLO ftops, but it won't let me start a new thread. I have made a few trades for a few k in the person2person transfers forum, so i am pretty reputable and honarable. Let me know what i need to do. thank you
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:38 PM   #717
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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how many posts do you need to start a new thread in this specific forum? I am wanting to sell about 50% of two of the upcoming PLO ftops, but it won't let me start a new thread. I have made a few trades for a few k in the person2person transfers forum, so i am pretty reputable and honarable. Let me know what i need to do. thank you
disregard this question, i figured it out. need to request to join in control panel
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:42 AM   #718
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Posted originally in the terrellk11 thread. In response to someone saying this seems to happen a lot with people involved at PTP.


Meh. It happens there, it happens here, it happens everywhere. It will continue to happen here.

It's all the same MO:
-Sell a package that runs over the course of the next month or so.
-Cash out some funds for living expenses.
-Realize you are too short to play the MTTs you sold the package for.
-Sell another package for more MTTs in the future to raise funds.
-Hope you hit a score before the 2nd package runs to make everything square.
-Run bad and sell another package because you need to have money to play the tournaments from the previous package you sold.
-Cash out a bit more because you need more money to live.

Just rinse and repeat over and over and eventually if you don't hit a score of some sort the amount of money you have stolen is too much to hide anymore from selling another package that it all gets revealed. Throw in a WSOP package and a rollover of a score or something and you are looking at $100k gone. Poof.

Ways to prevent this from happening:

1. Don't allow people to have multiple packages running at the same time.
2. Don't allow people to sell packages that run longer than ONE CALENDAR DAY.
3. Don't allow people to post packages more than a few days before the day the package runs.
4. As an investor, don't send money to players any sooner than 6 hours or so before the first tournament starts.
5. Don't allow people to sell packages on 2p2 that have packages running on PTP at the same time.

Sure, if all those rules were implemented it'd be a bigger hassle for both buyers and sellers to do business in the MP, but it would also eliminate this type of mega-scamming from taking place.

I'm nearly positive this sort of scam has happened a bunch of times in this MP before just the player hit a score or ran money up in cash to cover themselves before being exposed.

I don't think "being reputable" means much anymore, sadly.

Last edited by tdomeski; 11-09-2010 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:19 AM   #719
George Lind III
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

tdomeski, i really don't like having rules like that in the marketplace, rather, i think it should be the responsibility of the buyers to research whether they think it's a good buy. most of those rules seem on par with airport security, where it looks nice and makes you feel safer, but doesn't really help the situation in any meaningful way.

obviously this makes it important for people to bring up possible issues with people who are selling packages, but that seems better than putting rules in place that won't have much effect, and could even have a negative effect if buyers start to rely on the rules to be their safeguard against fraud.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:49 PM   #720
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGClayDol View Post
Anyway I wanted to ask, would it be normal for me to sell shares to the 3,000FPP turbo takedown? I did a quick search and only found people including this as a freeroll in large packages, but if I say sold to this only would it be fine? Provided I made it clear what this was, and what rate I was charging for the FPPs etc.

E.g. 3000 at 1.6c/FPP for $47.15 + x mark up or whatever. Don't want to get into details of what rate is fair and what mark up is fair but just confirming this is fine, I assume it is but I realise it hasn't been done before, or if it has very rarely.
Anyone
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:29 AM   #721
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdomeski View Post
Posted originally in the terrellk11 thread. In response to someone saying this seems to happen a lot with people involved at PTP.


Meh. It happens there, it happens here, it happens everywhere. It will continue to happen here.

It's all the same MO:
-Sell a package that runs over the course of the next month or so.
-Cash out some funds for living expenses.
-Realize you are too short to play the MTTs you sold the package for.
-Sell another package for more MTTs in the future to raise funds.
-Hope you hit a score before the 2nd package runs to make everything square.
-Run bad and sell another package because you need to have money to play the tournaments from the previous package you sold.
-Cash out a bit more because you need more money to live.

Just rinse and repeat over and over and eventually if you don't hit a score of some sort the amount of money you have stolen is too much to hide anymore from selling another package that it all gets revealed. Throw in a WSOP package and a rollover of a score or something and you are looking at $100k gone. Poof.

Ways to prevent this from happening:

1. Don't allow people to have multiple packages running at the same time.
2. Don't allow people to sell packages that run longer than ONE CALENDAR DAY.
3. Don't allow people to post packages more than a few days before the day the package runs.
4. As an investor, don't send money to players any sooner than 6 hours or so before the first tournament starts.
5. Don't allow people to sell packages on 2p2 that have packages running on PTP at the same time.

Sure, if all those rules were implemented it'd be a bigger hassle for both buyers and sellers to do business in the MP, but it would also eliminate this type of mega-scamming from taking place.

I'm nearly positive this sort of scam has happened a bunch of times in this MP before just the player hit a score or ran money up in cash to cover themselves before being exposed.

I don't think "being reputable" means much anymore, sadly.
The flaw with this is - who would monitor it?
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:44 PM   #722
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

tdomeski, how would you suggest people going about selling packages for longer tournament series (i.e. WSOP)? It would be a massive hassle (and probably not worth the effort) to sell each individual event that you wanted to play rather than do one large package. FWIW I don't think your idea is awful but I think it's way too messy to be implemented effectively.

Cliffs:
-Agree with GL3 and gtpitch
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Old 11-13-2010, 09:48 PM   #723
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I'm trying to get some references together. It is possible for me to give away part of myself in a tournament for free? Say, 5% to the first 5 posters?
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:58 AM   #724
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

ship it

probably better to work your way up from as low as you have to in terms of playing for a backer or selling shares to gain references and trust. just keep puttin effort in and post some in strategy forums, make friends so they can make sweet "vouch" posts in your threads that def pump up the volume
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:57 PM   #725
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Hey, I'm trying to open a thread to be staked for the first time, but i'm not allowed to open a thread. What's up with that, how do I sort it out etc. also I don't have specific references but i've been around, bought pieces of people, swapped money with people and am a known reg at stars $16 STTs. Is this is enough? I'm only looking for like $150 worth of stake anyway. Anyone care to advise?

edit: just realised how to apply for marketplace approval, other Qs still apply though.

Last edited by WhiteRabbito; 11-17-2010 at 09:08 PM.
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