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Old 10-11-2010, 07:46 PM   #676
og sour
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

and seeing the link again its cash game and not rush cash game I play the low cents table at the end of the day when I have change in my br. Like to end the day with digits no cents. anyway dont need to explane myself. I am RUSH plo reg and just looking for advice. if no advice givin then cool its all good.
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:56 PM   #677
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by og sour View Post
and seeing the link again its cash game and not rush cash game I play the low cents table at the end of the day when I have change in my br. Like to end the day with digits no cents. anyway dont need to explane myself. I am RUSH plo reg and just looking for advice. if no advice givin then cool its all good.
Sorry about that - I came across more accusatory than I meant. If PTR doesn't track RUSH, I had no idea. The main point I was trying to make, which I admittedly made poorly, was that trustworthiness is sort of the first important step so you should make sure you show effort to prove that at the outset.

In your situation, I would post HM or PT graphs of your cash game results, along with screen names and what you are looking for. I would ask to be staked for 50-75% of the buyins you're seeking at no markup. I'm sure if you show results in cash games, several people will take a flyer on you. Then you build trust over time (by paying quickly) and build confidence in your investors.

Good luck!
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:35 AM   #678
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Hi, i'm a PartTimePoker player that have a good reputation there and around $3.5k invested.


My stats:



I'm thinking about starting to sell on 2+2 some Saturday or Sunday MTT (maybe with some SNG's included to reduce variance) Action. The buy-in's would be a mix from $3 and $75 ($109).

Example of a schedule:

07:00 - $11 10k
07:00 - $26 10.5k
07:20 - $33 8k
07:35 - $2+R 12k
08:00 - $11 7.5k
08:00 - $11+R 32k
08:40 - $2.2+R 3k
09:00 - $26 16k
09:00 - $5.5 12k
09:00 - $109 20k
09:20 - $33 10k
10:00 - $8.8+R 40k
10:00 - $26 16.5k
10:30 - $11+R 19k
10:20 - $27.5 5k
10:40 - $8.8 4k
11:00 - $75 17.5k
11:15 - $44 8k
11:30 - $11 1R1A 10k
12:00 - $109 23.5k
12:00 - $22 20k
12:00 - $26 19.5k
12:30 - $11+R 30k



The thing is. I'm not familiar with markup. I was looking for some help trying to find fair numbers to me and to investors.

For example, i wanna run a similar schedule as i described above, total buy-in's would be around $800.

Considering that i don't pretend to invest anything. Is 25% markup selling 80% of the action fair (if i understood correctly markup i would receive the full $800)?

What about if i wanted to invest myself 50%, should i ask 25% markup and sell only 40% (and if i'm not mistaken i would receive $400)?
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:46 PM   #679
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcof3 View Post
The thing is. I'm not familiar with markup. I was looking for some help trying to find fair numbers to me and to investors.

For example, i wanna run a similar schedule as i described above, total buy-in's would be around $800.

Considering that i don't pretend to invest anything. Is 25% markup selling 80% of the action fair (if i understood correctly markup i would receive the full $800)?

What about if i wanted to invest myself 50%, should i ask 25% markup and sell only 40% (and if i'm not mistaken i would receive $400)?
I wouldn't ask for 25% markup, but your numbers are accurate.
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:48 PM   #680
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

My personal opinion is: go back to ptp. 2p2 marketplace should be a privilege for members of the community - not a place for ptp'ers to sell action now they can't sell out at ptp for whatever reason
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:40 AM   #681
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by DoGGz View Post
I wouldn't ask for 25% markup, but your numbers are accurate.
Do you have any suggestion about the number? 20%?


Quote:
My personal opinion is: go back to ptp. 2p2 marketplace should be a privilege for members of the community - not a place for ptp'ers to sell action now they can't sell out at ptp for whatever reason
yeah, that seems smart (not really). PTP sells just fine. The reason i'm here is not related with that.
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Old 10-14-2010, 08:05 PM   #682
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Do you have any suggestion about the number? 20%?
I wouldn't personally buy from you if it was over 15%.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:35 PM   #683
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

thanks
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:01 PM   #684
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

is it possible to just sell out 100% with no Markup and take X% cut of the profits like 30ish??
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:29 AM   #685
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by SpadeSkillz View Post
is it possible to just sell out 100% with no Markup and take X% cut of the profits like 30ish??
Yes, but it's not the preferred 2p2 method. 30% is too much as well.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:07 AM   #686
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

ya i kinda noticed not preferred...in the rare case it goes this way what is a normal %?
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:44 AM   #687
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

80/20
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:52 AM   #688
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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80/20
ty
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:50 AM   #689
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I have a couple of suggestions for the smoother operation of the online share selling forum. Admittedly their primary purpose is to make my own life/participation easier, but anyway...

1) full disclosure

This was motivated by an experience I had on Sunday. I want to emphasise that Tourbound, the guy in question, is in no way to blame for the fact that I spent half an hour or so excitedly watching him climb the chip counts in the Warmup, only to double check the package details and see that I didnt have an interest :|. He also states that hes backed in his action selling posts, but without wanting to sound annoying, I dont think this goes far enough. I have a right to know if people Im buying action in are playing anything else, whether it be mtts, cash games, or Monopoly, during the period of the tournaments Im buying action in. I had shares in eight or nine people, and I remember having all their names pulled up on the stars search function simultaneously (very cool btw, compared to searching for people on ftp), only to see that more than one - Im being purposely vague because I dont remember the who or the what - were in several tournaments not mentioned in the package. Quite apart from the argument above, this is a pain for those who have shares in multiple people because we then have to track back to the thread(s) and check which tournaments we care about and which we dont. In Tourbounds case, its also relevant because if his backer wants all of his action in some events but doesnt mind him selling a package including some others, it doesnt take a genius to work out the reason why, and that significantly affects the value of the package as a whole. (since I singled him out, I feel I should reiterate that I dont think he did anything intentionally shady, but had I known he was selling action to some Sunday majors and not to others of equal or lower buyin, it wouldve factored into my decision on whether or not to buy a piece).
On a related point, for those of you who have multiple IDs on diff sites that are different from your 2p2 handle, and who dont already do this, it would be useful if you post those IDs in your rail threads as well as your action threads. Frequently those have drifted off the front page and finding them, especially when you have a whole bunch of shares and have to do it twenty times, becomes annoying.

2) standardised posts for selling action

It would make it a lot easier to quickly read multiple posts selling action if there was some kind of template they all adhered to. OPR links, references, notable results, what theyre selling for, at what price, when those events are, and so on. It speaks to the extent to which I think this is somewhat of a sellers market, that some people can make posts one step above "i want money to play mtts at this amount of makeup ship to this username, no reserves. oh, and min 5pc" and be deluged with people taking it up. Somewhere, perhaps in one of the sticky threads, I think I remember seeing such a template - if so, it should be used a whole lot more.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:40 PM   #690
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by raconteur View Post
1) full disclosure

He also states that hes backed in his action selling posts, but without wanting to sound annoying, I dont think this goes far enough.
This is one of my pet peeves with investments as well but I think it's more the investor's responsibility to bring up any concerns they may have. If this is a deciding factor to you, it might be a good idea to be 100% sure by asking every time.

A more interesting question would be if a horse states that the package is all they will be playing, and then binks a random MTT for like $5k (was not listed in the package). Investors would probably be compensated for the value lost in the original package from playing extra tables but most likely would not get a proportional % of the winnings.

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Originally Posted by raconteur View Post
2) standardised posts for selling action
I wouldn't mind it but it's pretty difficult to enforce and set up from a design point of view.
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Old 10-23-2010, 01:41 PM   #691
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I know this may be getting a little too specific / nit picky, but would anyone (especially backers and investors) be interested in splitting this current forum into smaller subforums, mainly MTT shares and MTSNG/SNG shares?

I know personally this would benefit me, but I'm not sure if this would actually benefit the majority of backers/investors or the 2p2 community in general.

Appreciate any responses.
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:00 AM   #692
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Zima421 View Post
i havent seen this lately.


selling 80% at 25% markup would mean they have 80% with nothing invested, and there are a lot of differing opinions on whether thats ok/accepted.


selling 90% at 25% markup cant be good though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP OSU View Post
I mean I guess people can question why a good player HAS to sell enough action to freeroll, but I can't understand why people feel like the value of the package is diminished because of that specifically. Do you guys really think this person will just punt his money making opportunity? People know if they don't play their best most likely they won't get investors again in the future, it would be really dumb to not play their best. I've always invested money in my packages because I know they are +ev and I am able to do so fwiw. Some people just don't have a lot of money to work with as a bankroll for any one of a million reasons but have the skill to be +ev in larger tournaments so this is their best option...

Edit: obviously anything more than freerolling is no good, and I guess I'd be more likely to buy the action of someone who bought some of their own action than not but meh, these people don't deserve to be **** on as much as they are itt imo
jp osu's reply is pretty good. thanks.

there are lots of places in the business world (and as many have stated itt, staking is a business transaction we are talking about and you need to treat it like a business) where investors pay a premium for a skilled person to use their money to earn a return. this is actually a preferred model in a lot of businesses.

while i am no expert on "lots of businesses" i can comment somewhat intelligently about the real estate world as i have been purchasing investment property since 2003. not only did i get my start with a partner who allowed me to "freeroll" the first few investments, a lot of my colleagues got their start the same way (and many of us currently invest in r/e the same way). some bring money to the table. some bring intangibles. some just get paid because they found the deal or put the deal together.

in the commercial r/e world, i helped an equity firm raise money for a small deal in which they raised 1.2m to the banks 4.8m. they were given 60k (5% of funds raised) for their ability to raise 1.2m and they invested their 60k into the deal (as a type of 'freeroll' which they earned using a skill... in this case the ability to quickly raise money through their network of high net worth investors) this was what they did w/ all of their deals and their investors were happy to continue to give them money because they knew that the equity firm was out to make money for everyone.

playing premium MTT poker is the same thing---it is a skill. if someone has this skill, there is no reason (other than what i suspect is jealousy itt) that they shouldn't be able to broker themselves a "freeroll" by selling their action in a way (80% @ 25% Mark-Up). i actually came to the staking forum for the first time wondering about this exact thing... why don't more top MTTers sell 80% @ 25%MU all of the time? it just seems like such a smarter business decision... obv return for them will be lower considering they only will keep 20% of winnings, but the risk of earning < $0 is 0%. isn't this worth the trade off of earning a higher % of your winnings? what am i missing?

thanks!
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:02 AM   #693
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

although i disagree with your conclusion, its a reasonable enough analysis, except for the jealousy sidebar. as for the trade off, its a matter of personal preference and doesnt have a definitive answer.
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Old 10-28-2010, 02:05 AM   #694
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by raconteur View Post
I have a couple of suggestions for the smoother operation of the online share selling forum. Admittedly their primary purpose is to make my own life/participation easier, but anyway...

1) full disclosure

This was motivated by an experience I had on Sunday. I want to emphasise that Tourbound, the guy in question, is in no way to blame for the fact that I spent half an hour or so excitedly watching him climb the chip counts in the Warmup, only to double check the package details and see that I didnt have an interest :|. He also states that hes backed in his action selling posts, but without wanting to sound annoying, I dont think this goes far enough. I have a right to know if people Im buying action in are playing anything else, whether it be mtts, cash games, or Monopoly, during the period of the tournaments Im buying action in. I had shares in eight or nine people, and I remember having all their names pulled up on the stars search function simultaneously (very cool btw, compared to searching for people on ftp), only to see that more than one - Im being purposely vague because I dont remember the who or the what - were in several tournaments not mentioned in the package. Quite apart from the argument above, this is a pain for those who have shares in multiple people because we then have to track back to the thread(s) and check which tournaments we care about and which we dont. In Tourbounds case, its also relevant because if his backer wants all of his action in some events but doesnt mind him selling a package including some others, it doesnt take a genius to work out the reason why, and that significantly affects the value of the package as a whole. (since I singled him out, I feel I should reiterate that I dont think he did anything intentionally shady, but had I known he was selling action to some Sunday majors and not to others of equal or lower buyin, it wouldve factored into my decision on whether or not to buy a piece).
On a related point, for those of you who have multiple IDs on diff sites that are different from your 2p2 handle, and who dont already do this, it would be useful if you post those IDs in your rail threads as well as your action threads. Frequently those have drifted off the front page and finding them, especially when you have a whole bunch of shares and have to do it twenty times, becomes annoying.

Well, it does really stink that you singled me out in your "gripe" ... But I understand your concerns given what happened on that sunday... But seeing that I have bought plenty of shares of people, I think I have a pretty good understanding from both sides.. And my honest response to your "full disclosure" is that, most every package I have seen has been "fully disclosed":

As a seller, we post a list of tournaments, or tournament, that we wish to sell action to.. You (and me) the investor looks at that list, and the players "credentials" and make a decision on if that is a good investment or not.. The end.. In your case, i believe i sold action to 6 tournaments that day... Unless you expect a horse or any serious MTT to only play 6 tournaments on the biggest day of the week to play, you should only know, that horse will be playing other tournaments that day that weren't listed.. I would say that 25-45 tournaments on a sunday is a standard range for MTTrs.. I played 29 that specific sunday, and think the other 23 tournaments that were spread out throughout the day didn't have any "negative" affect of the value of your package..

The only concern I see as a investor is if, I purchase shares of a horse that has what looks like a "full schedule"... Then it comes a matter of what else he might play and how much, etc... But even then, It is up to ME the investor to bring these concerns up before I pull the trigger on the investment.
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:25 AM   #695
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

of course they did, because they were the 23 that your backer wanted action in. you sold action to the six that he didnt. since he is presumably in the best position, after you yourself, to evaluate your strengths and weaknesses, that massively affects the value of your package.

i said twice and im happy to say again that i dont think you did anything intentionally shady, but, (aside from the results oriented reason where you got singled out because you won a chunk of money, which should help to ameliorate any slightly hurt feelings from my post) this is an example of a situation where casual investors/people who come into this forum without a massive knowledge of how serious mtt players go about their business need some level of protection, otherwise it leads to a bunch of more serious issues and, perhaps more pertinently, a bunch of potential investment money never being put into play.

on a personal level, i completely accept that i have ultimate responsibility for my investment decisions, but im looking to buy action in a whole bunch of people without dedicating my life to poring over stats and graphs. anything that speeds up my own decision making process, even if it marginally affects the quality of that process, is probably going to be a good thing for me, and its obviously going to be a good thing for people who get invested in when otherwise id have been too tired/tilted/busy with other stuff because id spent the previous eight hours making three investments that id thoroughly checked out. so, yes, i bear the responsibility to bring up any concerns. but the seller bears the responsibility to be as transparent as possible so that i rarely need to.
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Old 10-28-2010, 06:57 AM   #696
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by raconteur View Post
of course they did, because they were the 23 that your backer wanted action in. you sold action to the six that he didnt. since he is presumably in the best position, after you yourself, to evaluate your strengths and weaknesses, that massively affects the value of your package.
Just because a backer doesn't want action in a higher buy-in tournament, doesn't mean he doesn't think the horse is +EV enough. Variance.
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:42 AM   #697
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

given the exact details of the situation, that argument doesnt hold a lot of merit.
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:35 AM   #698
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Raconteur, transparency in the BAP's are there... We buy action on the listed tournaments, the end.... You really can't be more transparent then that....

And what aznpower said is exactly right, it is ridiculous of you to think that my backer doesn't want to put me in higher BI's because of my play... He is a smart guy, and understands BR management... If he has X amount of dollars, and is willing to take P amount of risk, given that he has 18 horses, that play a range of Y-Z tournaments.. It is totally understandable, he would only want his horses to play in certain ranges of his BR. Like aznp said, there is a ton of variance in the higher BI's and it makes the swings for the backer that much higher..

That being said, my own mentality is way different then most.. I would rather put up a BAP, then play the High MTT's on sundays under my backer, because i don't like having a huge Make Up #... That is the reason, i play the schedule I do.

SIDE NOTE:

I have been in business for many years, in many different capacities... And from your post, it seems like you are trying to make it "easier" on yourself and other investors "myself" by certain measures.. While in some instances, I totally agree with this premise, I would have to say the one you are bringing to the table doesn't necessarily hold water.

I liken it to someone, walking up to Wall Street and saying "Hey, I want to invest money, but don't really want to put much time or effort into it, please make it easy and seamless as possible, and make sure I come out on top in the end.. "

When in reality, investing isn't easy, and you might have to spend hours of investigation on making the right decisions...
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:19 PM   #699
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

ha, of course im trying to make it easy on myself. isnt everyone? can you think of anyone on this forum who isnt trying to secure the best terms they can? with sellers, its selling at as large a markup as they think they can command. with me, the markup is my time, and i obviously want it to be as low as possible.
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:57 PM   #700
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourbound68 View Post

And what aznpower said is exactly right, it is ridiculous of you to think that my backer doesn't want to put me in higher BI's because of my play... He is a smart guy, and understands BR management... If he has X amount of dollars, and is willing to take P amount of risk, given that he has 18 horses, that play a range of Y-Z tournaments.. It is totally understandable, he would only want his horses to play in certain ranges of his BR. Like aznp said, there is a ton of variance in the higher BI's and it makes the swings for the backer that much higher..

First off - Tourbound (Michael) is a credit to the marketplace overall. His BAPs are always extremely well-run and well-organized. He makes every effort to please his investors and that is a big reason why his offers sell well IMO (along with being a +EV MTT player).

However - I understand Raconteur's point.....this Sunday, you are selling a package of Sunday action in some of the tougher (lesser ROI for anyone including you) tourneys of the day. And it is not just a BR issue for your backer. You are selling the $215/6 Second Chance and Mulligan, but not the $215/6 Sunday Mil and $750K. I think everyone that plays online even a a little knows that the Sunday Mil and FTP 750K are much higher ROI tourneys due to softer fields. So to Raconteur's point, your backer is cherry picking your schedule and leaving the tougher and lower ROI tourneys to be sold on 2+2.

Now, I am not saying that the BAP you put out for Sunday is not a good investment....that is really not for me to say (nor do I have an informed opinion really), I am just saying that we are kind of getting the cake without the icing, so to speak.


Please note that these comments are coming from someone who has bought action from Tourbound on several occasions....and will likely do so again.
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