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Old 08-31-2010, 11:05 PM   #601
AADYNASTY
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Im trying to sell shares for sunday but im new to the site..AADYNASTY on pstars/fulltilt...since im new to the site it will not let me post in the selling action thread...what do i do??
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:12 PM   #602
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by tdomeski View Post
Investors feeling blindsided by this is kind of silly in my opinion. I think that if there was only one single investor in that thread the opinion of the thread would be that OP didn't owe anything for travel expenses. Kind of shocked OP is still attempting to settle something after all the out of line attacks on his character by a few investors.
I agree with you that there was no need for posters to call him out or call him "shady". I beg to disagree with you on the travel expenses thing. I cannot speak for other investors who pretty much said "Play the event" if he wins the satty. I followed the thread till he clarified that cash equivalent is an option and then reserved my 5%. You cannot expect me to keep checking that thread. It's not like he sold the shares two weeks ago or something. If I had read the example that Ken posted in the thread, I assure you I would have asked for a clarification on the travel expenses/cash aspect of the deal. In that sense, the onus falls on the other investors too.


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If I were an investor I would absolutely not be pushing for arbitration from an outside party and would hope to settle for anything greater than the price of the piece on simply the tournament action. If the directions of any arbitrator was to read the terms of the package sold and the expectations of when a seat was won, the investors would be drawing dead on getting a piece of the travel expenses in my opinion.
I really don't think it is as clear cut as you think it is. In fact, it might be much more clear cut the other way. I will repeat this again. Yes, Ken posted an example and explained how it would work. But at the same time, he never took away the option of cash value of the package. I think you are missing this point. I understand that you are playing devil's advocate, so here's a question for you. What should be done to my % of the shares knowing very well that I bought it solely based on the option of cash equivalent?
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:24 PM   #603
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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I agree with you that there was no need for posters to call him out or call him "shady". I beg to disagree with you on the travel expenses thing. I cannot speak for other investors who pretty much said "Play the event" if he wins the satty. I followed the thread till he clarified that cash equivalent is an option and then reserved my 5%. You cannot expect me to keep checking that thread. It's not like he sold the shares two weeks ago or something. If I had read the example that Ken posted in the thread, I assure you I would have asked for a clarification on the travel expenses/cash aspect of the deal. In that sense, the onus falls on the other investors too.




I really don't think it is as clear cut as you think it is. In fact, it might be much more clear cut the other way. I will repeat this again. Yes, Ken posted an example and explained how it would work. But at the same time, he never took away the option of cash value of the package. I think you are missing this point. I understand that you are playing devil's advocate, so here's a question for you. What should be done to my % of the shares knowing very well that I bought it solely based on the option of cash equivalent?
Investors want to quote OP's use of the word "package" and make it mean buyin + travel when it's clear from his other explanations that the value of the "package" should he win would not include the travel expenses.

Just because on the PokerStars website the word "package" includes travel expenses doesn't mean that it holds the same definition when used by the OP especially after he explicitly clarified it did not (or at least that's how I see it).

Not a personal attack on you, by any means, but just because you didn't know what you were buying, doesn't mean the person selling it to you should be punished. If what OP says is true about him selling the exact same action previous times on PTP, then why would he assume you wouldn't buy the action under the terms he offered?
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:38 PM   #604
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by tdomeski View Post
Investors want to quote OP's use of the word "package" and make it mean buyin + travel when it's clear from his other explanations that the value of the "package" should he win would not include the travel expenses.

Just because on the PokerStars website the word "package" includes travel expenses doesn't mean that it holds the same definition when used by the OP especially after he explicitly clarified it did not (or at least that's how I see it).

Not a personal attack on you, by any means, but just because you didn't know what you were buying, doesn't mean the person selling it to you should be punished. If what OP says is true about him selling the exact same action previous times on PTP, then why would he assume you wouldn't buy the action under the terms he offered?
Those other explanations that you are referring to only came after I had already bought my %. Until that point, the assumption was that he would pay the cash equivalent. I don't know why you keep saying "but just because you didn't know what you were buying, doesn't mean the person selling it to you should be punished". I knew exactly what I was buying.

I've no idea how they do business at PTP but I understand that their selling process is a lot more complicated. I would not give you any points for trying to compare the two(PTP and 2p2). I just went back and checked the thread to see if "expenses" was discussed anywhere. To my surprise, I found that word was not found anywhere on the 1st page(50 posts) of the thread.
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:56 PM   #605
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Thinky View Post
Those other explanations that you are referring to only came after I had already bought my %. Until that point, the assumption was that he would pay the cash equivalent. I don't know why you keep saying "but just because you didn't know what you were buying, doesn't mean the person selling it to you should be punished". I knew exactly what I was buying.

I've no idea how they do business at PTP but I understand that their selling process is a lot more complicated. I would not give you any points for trying to compare the two(PTP and 2p2). I just went back and checked the thread to see if "expenses" was discussed anywhere. To my surprise, I found that word was not found anywhere on the 1st page(50 posts) of the thread.
But before the package started...

I am not trying to compare PTP and 2p2 at all. Read my post. I am saying that the argument that OP "should have known better" when he's sold action on the internet, under the same terms, and not had an issue is a joke. Investors should have known better to buy action without clarifying what happens to the travel expenses when, as you mention, it isn't even mentioned at all by anyone until after he won the package.

The fact is the tournaments were played under those terms. You are all being results oriented complaining about the effective markup you paid now. If he blanked all the qualifiers no one would have said a word despite paying the same effective markup.
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Old 09-01-2010, 06:14 AM   #606
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by tdomeski View Post
But before the package started...

The fact is the tournaments were played under those terms. You are all being results oriented complaining about the effective markup you paid now. If he blanked all the qualifiers no one would have said a word despite paying the same effective markup.
You are pretty much implying that the terms can be changed anytime before the package starts. So, I could say for eg: Taxes will not be withheld in my first post and then post later(after action has been bought) that 30% taxes will be withheld. Maybe an extreme example but you get the point. If you did not check that post, you are out of luck?
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:51 AM   #607
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Thinky View Post
You are pretty much implying that the terms can be changed anytime before the package starts. So, I could say for eg: Taxes will not be withheld in my first post and then post later(after action has been bought) that 30% taxes will be withheld. Maybe an extreme example but you get the point. If you did not check that post, you are out of luck?
I don't have the option to edit the original post to give further clarification. The ONLY way to clarify terms is through subsequent discussion.
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:50 AM   #608
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

dear tdomeski

you wrote: the investors would be drawing dead on getting a piece of the travel expenses in my opinion.

as it is, the investors are atm drawing dead as ken does not intend to give us more than a whopping 12% of the travel package value. so it i dont see how it could get any worse.
and it seems his position does not change at all.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:08 AM   #609
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Zacharrrr View Post
dear tdomeski

you wrote: the investors would be drawing dead on getting a piece of the travel expenses in my opinion.

as it is, the investors are atm drawing dead as ken does not intend to give us more than a whopping 12% of the travel package value. so it i dont see how it could get any worse.
and it seems his position does not change at all.

The offer I made has investors getting back their full value of the 1k in expense money and MORE THAN 50% of the hotel expense. I have no idea where you're 12% number is coming from but it's not accurate.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:29 AM   #610
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

if an investor decides to keep his share its an accurate number. sorry if i wasnt precise.
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Old 09-01-2010, 02:35 PM   #611
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Thinky View Post
You are pretty much implying that the terms can be changed anytime before the package starts. So, I could say for eg: Taxes will not be withheld in my first post and then post later(after action has been bought) that 30% taxes will be withheld. Maybe an extreme example but you get the point. If you did not check that post, you are out of luck?
That's completely different. That would be saying one thing in the OP and then completely changing it in subsequent posts. He never once implied in any post that he would be paying for travel expenses. Again, because he used the word "package" you are all making the assumption (while normally a good one) that it includes travel expenses. He then goes on to clarify that there is no intention to pay for travel expenses (in the hypothetical to Lipo).

Anyways, this is all getting kind of silly. I don't expect investors to change their view on this because they have a vested interest in having the travel expenses included in their equity. It just annoys me that pretty much all but one investor (that I've seen) hasn't stepped back and thought "Wow, I actually didn't do a good job figuring out what I was buying and now it led to this." Instead everyone is just piling the blame on the guy who sold the action because he did not use what most consider the industry standard (despite stating that multiple times in the thread before he won the package).

Also, while it is the industry standard for a backer NOT to foot the bill for travel it is something that 1) is done on other legitimate share selling sites (we can all hate on PTP all we want, but it happens over there), 2) is done from time to time even to this day in long term staking deals, and 3) is something a lot people argued for in a thread in MTTc 2 years ago. I only say this to try and shed some light on why I think the argument of "It's obvious that the player would pay for travel!" is a terrible one.
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Old 09-01-2010, 02:42 PM   #612
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Zacharrrr View Post
dear tdomeski

you wrote: the investors would be drawing dead on getting a piece of the travel expenses in my opinion.

as it is, the investors are atm drawing dead as ken does not intend to give us more than a whopping 12% of the travel package value. so it i dont see how it could get any worse.
and it seems his position does not change at all.
Well, you know my opinion on the matter. In my opinion, anything Ken gives that is > 0% of the travel package value to investors would be a gesture of goodwill to attempt to restore his reputation in light of the unnecessary (I think we can all agree it wasn't an elaborate scam from the beginning) shots its taken. I'm not sure what I would do if I was put in his position at this moment. Seems like a lot of the more vocal people have turned into a lose/lose situation for Ken.

Last edited by tdomeski; 09-01-2010 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 09-01-2010, 06:11 PM   #613
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Whatever happened to the post at the top of the marketplace page in which everyone pretty much suggested to divide the marketplace into live/online? Is this going to happen?
I seemed to enter and post in the middle of a debate on a separate issue. Does anyone know what is going on with the splitting of the market into live/online?
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:21 PM   #614
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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I seemed to enter and post in the middle of a debate on a separate issue. Does anyone know what is going on with the splitting of the market into live/online?
I believe the mods are in the process of doing it.
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Old 09-02-2010, 08:40 PM   #615
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

I actually think splitting it Online/Live is not a good idea. I looked yesterday around this time and only 4 threads on the first page were Live and the rest online. If you now only 5 threads are live.

I don't know what the solution is but i really dont think that split is in any way equal and so wont reduce congestion.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:39 PM   #616
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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I actually think splitting it Online/Live is not a good idea. I looked yesterday around this time and only 4 threads on the first page were Live and the rest online. If you now only 5 threads are live.

I don't know what the solution is but i really dont think that split is in any way equal and so wont reduce congestion.
This was the idea as it appeared to be the most universally accepted.

Do you believe that a lot of this stems from the fact that WCOOP is soon? Once that's over and we get more into PCA season and then back into WSOP season etc won't it balance out?

I'm not saying its perfect but I'm not sure another way is better. Dividing by stakes or length is another option but it leaves too many grey lines and grey lines = too many ways for people to **** it up.

And if people are ****ing it up too much then its more work for me and the other mods which isn't the better solution.

I'm not saying people won't **** up live/online too but it seems less likely as there is no grey.

Unless of course the tournament is an online satty to a live event
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:53 AM   #617
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Hello 2+2,

I am so clueless here. I have spent hours reading the posts on how investing works here. But, I would still like to have some clarity.

I spend the majority of my time on PTP under the name emotivator although my sn is Yeshua_Won.

I am looking to possibly sell some WCOOP higher buy in action here. If I am looking to sell with a 75/25 cut with no makeup in favor of the backer how would I structure that? Let's say the BR is $20,000.

Is there a makeup option where an investor can recoup losses if the investment is not profitable? I would want that cut to be 55/45 in favor of the investor if it's possible.

I understand that references are going to be very important since I have few posts. I have been a member of 2+2 for four years and I feel that I can get some references without too much trouble.

Anything else I am missing?

I appreciate the help.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:05 AM   #618
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

Most people here just use Mark up.
Say that all the tourneys add up to 20k and you want to sell all of yourself, then sell 80% of yourself with a 25% markup. Mind you this is sort of frowned upon by some users since you are essentially freerolling.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:09 AM   #619
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

tyvm. Is it as frowned upon as much if my ROI is 80%+ in high buy ins or does that not matter? I want to make a fair deal for everyone.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:20 AM   #620
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

People might question why you need to sell 100% of yourself with such good results. Some don't so put it out there and see what happens. gl
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:55 AM   #621
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by gtpitch View Post
This was the idea as it appeared to be the most universally accepted.

Do you believe that a lot of this stems from the fact that WCOOP is soon? Once that's over and we get more into PCA season and then back into WSOP season etc won't it balance out?

I'm not saying its perfect but I'm not sure another way is better. Dividing by stakes or length is another option but it leaves too many grey lines and grey lines = too many ways for people to **** it up.

And if people are ****ing it up too much then its more work for me and the other mods which isn't the better solution.

I'm not saying people won't **** up live/online too but it seems less likely as there is no grey.

Unless of course the tournament is an online satty to a live event
Well the first 3 pages are now all WCOOP - with about 10-15max being live event. I understand that the accepted feeling was live/online but you really look at it we would still have 2.5pages of WCOOP wanting to be sold and this consistency get bumped until everyone is paid out.

Im not sure what the solution is but having thread drop from the top of the first page to the 3rd page in <8hrs isnt great!

I would prefer a sub forum on 6-24months members to post and a 24month+ one.

I'm not sure if even that is better.... going to think about it more today and post my thoughts later.

Defo going to include an online satty into a live event in my next stake
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:07 AM   #622
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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Originally Posted by Yeshua_Won View Post
Hello 2+2,

I am so clueless here. I have spent hours reading the posts on how investing works here. But, I would still like to have some clarity.

I spend the majority of my time on PTP under the name emotivator although my sn is Yeshua_Won.

I am looking to possibly sell some WCOOP higher buy in action here. If I am looking to sell with a 75/25 cut with no makeup in favor of the backer how would I structure that? Let's say the BR is $20,000.

Is there a makeup option where an investor can recoup losses if the investment is not profitable? I would want that cut to be 55/45 in favor of the investor if it's possible.

I understand that references are going to be very important since I have few posts. I have been a member of 2+2 for four years and I feel that I can get some references without too much trouble.

Anything else I am missing?

I appreciate the help.
The easiest way is to take everything you know about staking and backing from PTP and NOT use it when thinking about selling shares on 2p2. Everything is as simple as it seems; there are none of the complex systems from PTP.
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:54 PM   #623
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

perhaps split into 1-day events (incl. single live events) and Multi-day packages (for series, both live and online)
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:53 PM   #624
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

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tyvm. Is it as frowned upon as much if my ROI is 80%+ in high buy ins or does that not matter? I want to make a fair deal for everyone.
I am relatively new here as well. But I feel I have a good understanding for how things work here. So:

- There is no makeup here. You only sell action with a given markup.
- It's a marketplace. You can do what you want. Meaning you can post what you want to sell and your terms. How it will sell will depend on demand. If people think it's a fair/good deal it will sell, alternatively if people think your price is high it won't sell.
Note: obviously investors are taking on significant variance in buying action, and hence are looking for a return, not just a "fair" or neutral EV deal.
- There is no such thing as a "fair price". What I mean is there is a bunch of guess work here on the part of everyone.
No one knows what their "real ROI" is - since sample sizes in general are not sufficiently big, and the level of play (as well as your own play) in the tourneys changes over time anyways (so your ROI changes over time as well).
From this perspective, the way things work here - it's great for the seller that it's a market place. Because the seller gets instant feedback on what the market is willing to pay.
Post with what the market think is a high price and it won't sell. Post with what the market think is a low price, and it will sell quickly.
- In general, if you want to sell enough action to cover all your buy-ins, you will likely need to charge lower mark-up because investors are not going to like that you are not putting up any $ yourself. As an investor I certainly won't like it.
- a 75/25 split is equal to 1.33 markup which is relatively on the high side, and is unlikely to sell (much more so if you attempt to sell 75% of your action).
- If it's important for you to sell all your action, I recommend setting a price of 1.2 or lower; at 1.2 you'll need to sell 83% or so to cover your buy-ins.
- If it's not important for you to sell all your action, you can set your markup at 1.25 or 1.3 put it up, and see how it goes.
I looked at your PS stats, my guess is that you'll have a hard time selling significant action at above 1.2 (unless you have significant results on FTP as well), but like I said it's a marketplace - you can try whatever and let the market give you feedback.

BTW, as a reference, you should check out packages others currently have out.
There are many WCOOP packages out there, and you can see what markups are selling for players with existing databases.

Hope this helps.
Best of luck!
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Old 09-03-2010, 03:15 PM   #625
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*

As an addendum to the above: if you play a large package (30+ tournies), you don't need to sell all of your action to have low risk on your part. Most of the time you will at least cash for some amount.

Example:


$1000 tournament package that you sell 75% @ 1.2 markup.

Investors would send you $900 for 75%.

You would only need to cash for x*.25=$100 to break even for yourself (x=$400 in cashes).

If you only cashed for $100 in that package, you'd be down only $75 on the day.

-

The example above is something that I think many sellers don't understand.
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