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***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions*** ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions***

08-12-2010 , 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by klink10k
after reading through this forum and the absolute nonsense that is going on w/ wsop stakes being rolled and people acting like general idiots, I'm pretty sure i'm never investing in anyone in this forum unless I am very good friends with them. Its really tilting to have to ask for updates, or ask for hand histories over and over.
I understand that stakes should provide updates with chip counts, ave stacks, ect during different times but why should they have to provide hand histories unless it is a staking/coaching deal?

If a player is just being stacked why should he have to post his hand histories and explain the way he plays? In my opinion the player will second guess his instincts and it is really no business of the backer as to how he plays.

thoughts on this?
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08-12-2010 , 02:59 AM
why the f shouldnt they have to provide hand histories if people think they are being ripped off
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08-12-2010 , 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShipitFMA
why the f shouldnt they have to provide hand histories if people think they are being ripped off
Ripped off how? like..Not the actual player that is linked to the opr rankings?

Why would any player try to play bad in a package?

I see all of these rail posts with horses posting tons of hands and backer being critical and complaining about how they played the hands. In my opinion after the investment is made the player should have to answer to no one on how they played a hand. If you are worrying about what someone else thinks about a certain play you will lose touch with your instincts or be afraid to look bad and therefore not play your best. Not to mention all the time they are taking to post and defend hands is taking away from the focus they should have at the tables.
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08-12-2010 , 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammeru173
Ripped off how? like..Not the actual player that is linked to the opr rankings?

Why would any player try to play bad in a package?

I see all of these rail posts with horses posting tons of hands and backer being critical and complaining about how they played the hands. In my opinion after the investment is made the player should have to answer to no one on how they played a hand. If you are worrying about what someone else thinks about a certain play you will lose touch with your instincts or be afraid to look bad and therefore not play your best. Not to mention all the time they are taking to post and defend hands is taking away from the focus they should have at the tables.

I do alot of buying shares here and i would never ever buy a second time action of someone who does not provide hh of his game.
The reason is verry easy: you can be a verry good player but are really unlucky and therefore show no profit in your bap. If this happens i am willing to buy again as luck will turn around
But i also may see lots of moves i don't like so even when this player shows profit i would not buy again as it was pure look.

So for that i need to see hh to decide if i ever would buy shares again.

And one other thing: If you play with my money i believe i have all right to aks for hh as you are basically my employee and i want to see how you do your work.
If you believe the backer has lost al rights with giving him your money and then he has just to sit there and wait what you tell him how the outcome was i would never ever think about buying shares from you.
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08-12-2010 , 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birgit70
I do alot of buying shares here and i would never ever buy a second time action of someone who does not provide hh of his game.
The reason is verry easy: you can be a verry good player but are really unlucky and therefore show no profit in your bap. If this happens i am willing to buy again as luck will turn around
But i also may see lots of moves i don't like so even when this player shows profit i would not buy again as it was pure look.

So for that i need to see hh to decide if i ever would buy shares again.

And one other thing: If you play with my money i believe i have all right to aks for hh as you are basically my employee and i want to see how you do your work.
If you believe the backer has lost al rights with giving him your money and then he has just to sit there and wait what you tell him how the outcome was i would never ever think about buying shares from you.
ehhhhhhh, not sure i agree with the bolded
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08-12-2010 , 03:48 PM
From the view of someone who sells action:

I try to post some HHs, but I don't want the rail thread to turn into one giant wall of text. I know some players will just want to quickly check to see if I'm deep in anything and don't want to skim through a full page of hand histories. With that in mind, I post significant hands from deep runs and a few interesting spots so any investor can get an idea how I play.

It's really a balance to keep everyone happy.
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08-12-2010 , 07:09 PM
I think all points regarding the posting of hh are valid....I just feel that people often get carried away with it and it takes away from where there concentration should be.
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08-14-2010 , 08:34 AM
probably a stupid question but here we go:
some time ago when i were looking to stake some people, i always saw they were taking like 40% cut or 50% cut or something like that, but now i dont see anything of that, why? and what is mark-up? is that like a fee you are charging?
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08-14-2010 , 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achrilles
probably a stupid question but here we go:
some time ago when i were looking to stake some people, i always saw they were taking like 40% cut or 50% cut or something like that, but now i dont see anything of that, why? and what is mark-up? is that like a fee you are charging?
There is a big difference between long term deals and short term packages. A player can get a bigger cut in a long term deal because they are expected to profit. In a short term package, the player normally loses with only the occasional big win.

Markup is a premium that the player sets which is a guaranteed profit for him. From the investors point of view, it needs to be low enough where the he can expect to profit off the purchase.
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08-14-2010 , 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
There is a big difference between long term deals and short term packages. A player can get a bigger cut in a long term deal because they are expected to profit. In a short term package, the player normally loses with only the occasional big win.

Markup is a premium that the player sets which is a guaranteed profit for him. From the investors point of view, it needs to be low enough where the he can expect to profit off the purchase.
thx!
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08-17-2010 , 12:13 PM
hey guys.
I'm a french poker player, and I'm probably going to play in a 1.2k live tournament.

Problem is, with the recently passed online gambling bill in France, I cannot transfer/receive funds from player all over the world, including French-based ones.

So i'm basically looking to sell some %age of myself in a tournament who will take place in a small town, near the Swiss border, and I can't receive money any other way than by cash.

There might be a pretty large field (a few hundreds, i guess) because it's a Pokerstars event. (France Poker Series)

My question is, given all that, do you think it is useful in anyway to post a topic looking to sell some %age or not at all ?

Ty.
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08-20-2010 , 04:08 AM
actually you could look for european players who have a ps.com and ps.fr account, and use him to transfere money.
All european players except the french one can have accounts on both sides and i know of many at least in germany who have accounts in both and i am just in the process of getting an ps.fr account too
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08-20-2010 , 12:45 PM
what system do people use here for makeup?

I'm a member of PartTimePoker, and i usually sell action at 50% with makeup included, but here it seems like people are using another system. I've seen things like 1.35:1, etc. Can anyone take some time and explain me how that works?

I'm currently selling action on PTP at 50% with makeup/ 70% with no makeup, how would i be able to sell some action here with the same cuts?
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08-20-2010 , 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcof3
what system do people use here for makeup?

I'm a member of PartTimePoker, and i usually sell action at 50% with makeup included, but here it seems like people are using another system. I've seen things like 1.35:1, etc. Can anyone take some time and explain me how that works?

I'm currently selling action on PTP at 50% with makeup/ 70% with no makeup, how would i be able to sell some action here with the same cuts?
You won't be able to sell 70% with no makeup on here. It's impossible to say how much markup that would be without knowing your exact results, but I'd estimate it between 35-40%.

Markup is just a premium someone pays over the cost the tournament buy in. If you were to play a $1000 tournament with 20% markup, you'd sell shares of yourself with 1% costing ($1000*1.2=$1200) $12. The person who bought shares would get 1% of gross winnings per $12.

EDIT: To answer your first question, there is no long term makeup for a 2p2 share sell. Each sell is it's own purchase.
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08-20-2010 , 02:15 PM
If I understand the PTP system, what you mean by 70% w/ no makeup is that the backer gets 70% and you get 30%. This is equivalent to 1/.7 = 1.428..., ie. 42% markup.

That is, a backer could buy 70% of you by giving you 1.42 * 70% of the buyin. Since 1.42 * .7 = 1, he'd be paying your full buyin, but you'd still have 30% of yourself.
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08-20-2010 , 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcat
If I understand the PTP system, what you mean by 70% w/ no makeup is that the backer gets 70% and you get 30%. This is equivalent to 1/.7 = 1.428..., ie. 42% markup.

That is, a backer could buy 70% of you by giving you 1.42 * 70% of the buyin. Since 1.42 * .7 = 1, he'd be paying your full buyin, but you'd still have 30% of yourself.


70% with no makeup means that he gets 70% of the profits, 100% if the BAP ends breakeven or less than the starting amount (stakeback).

The no makeup would mean that i don't own anything if he wants to invest in me later.

The 50% with makeup means that he gets only 50% of the profits, but if he invest for example $100 and i lose it all and then i open another where he is an investor and i profit $150 on his shares (not on the total, only on his %) instead of splitting the $150 i pay first the $100 back and we split the remaining $50 ($25 for me and $25+100+original investment) for him.


At least on PTP the usual cut's are ~50% with makeup for long term baps (around 1 month) and that is similar with ~70% with no makeup
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08-20-2010 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
You won't be able to sell 70% with no makeup on here. It's impossible to say how much markup that would be without knowing your exact results, but I'd estimate it between 35-40%.

Markup is just a premium someone pays over the cost the tournament buy in. If you were to play a $1000 tournament with 20% markup, you'd sell shares of yourself with 1% costing ($1000*1.2=$1200) $12. The person who bought shares would get 1% of gross winnings per $12.

EDIT: To answer your first question, there is no long term makeup for a 2p2 share sell. Each sell is it's own purchase.

I'll need to review your answer with some time, and Fitzcat's answer, but for now i don't get this:

Quote:
EDIT: To answer your first question, there is no long term makeup for a 2p2 share sell. Each sell is it's own purchase.
can you explain this please? the makeup term means that we own $ to the investors and as i explained on the previous post better (i think) we have to pay it back with our profits on later investments.

Do you mean then that 2+2 don't use that system of owning the investors and that every "plan" is independent of previous results and previous history with the investors?



Another question. Let me give an example to explain it better. I saw some people selling like this:

20% markup, on a $1000 bankroll, so they ask for $1200.

1%: $12
10%: $120
20%: $240


I don't get why they are asking for $1200 if they only need $1000 to play.


Thanks
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08-20-2010 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcof3
can you explain this please? the makeup term means that we own $ to the investors and as i explained on the previous post better (i think) we have to pay it back with our profits on later investments.

Do you mean then that 2+2 don't use that system of owning the investors and that every "plan" is independent of previous results and previous history with the investors?
Yes, exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcof3
Another question. Let me give an example to explain it better. I saw some people selling like this:

20% markup, on a $1000 bankroll, so they ask for $1200.

1%: $12
10%: $120
20%: $240


I don't get why they are asking for $1200 if they only need $1000 to play.


Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
Markup is just a premium someone pays over the cost the tournament buy in. If you were to play a $1000 tournament with 20% markup, you'd sell shares of yourself with 1% costing ($1000*1.2=$1200) $12. The person who bought shares would get 1% of gross winnings per $12.
In this scenerio, the player won't be selling 100% of himself. You'll see players sell only portions of their action (50-80%)
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08-20-2010 , 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
Yes, exactly.





In this scenerio, the player won't be selling 100% of himself. You'll see players sell only portions of their action (50-80%)


Still weird :P

So basically 2+2 use the PTP no makeup option right? if nobody owns anything when they lose and open another plan.

you said that it's impossible to know the markup without knowing my stats after saying that 70% with no makeup would be impossible.

What does my stats have to do with that (ok, they always are related but it seemed to me that there's some kind of system to find the markup using the ROI)?

On PTP we use usually 70-75% unless 2 things happen: The horse is not very good, and than it can go up to 80% sometimes 85% with no makeup or the plan have a very high risk, for example 1-3 mtt's only, and then again the cut go up to 80-85%.

Do you think that those numbers are similar here?

I'm currently selling for example $1500 on PTP for a cash plan to play NL50-NL100. Already sold $600 but wanted to give 2+2 an opportunity to get some % of that $1500. The plan would take around 1 month to end. I have some stats, nothing out of ordinary and i have around 20k profit on sng's/mtt. Do you have any idea of the markup i would be able to get? On PTP i'm asking 50% with makeup with a 70% no makeup option which seems to be the standard there.
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08-20-2010 , 03:14 PM
People rarely sell cash 'shares'. I have no idea how that would even work.

Everything I wrote was pertaining to tournaments. 2p2 does not use the PTP no makeup option. Gross winnings are split, not just profits.
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08-20-2010 , 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcof3
you said that it's impossible to know the markup without knowing my stats after saying that 70% with no makeup would be impossible.
Not impossible, just a horrible deal for the investor over any short term package.

The precise conversion between 70/30 deal where the investor gets 100% cut before profit and 70% of net profit to the 2p2 system where the investor gets x% of gross winnings is completely dependent on the size of the package, the ability of the horse, the size of the tournament fields, etc.

I think you are missing the issue: If you sell 80% a $2000 tournament package and cash for $1000, your investors get $800, with one percent worth $8. There is no makeup. Repeat. There is no makeup.
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08-20-2010 , 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcat
If I understand the PTP system, what you mean by 70% w/ no makeup is that the backer gets 70% and you get 30%. This is equivalent to 1/.7 = 1.428..., ie. 42% markup.

That is, a backer could buy 70% of you by giving you 1.42 * 70% of the buyin. Since 1.42 * .7 = 1, he'd be paying your full buyin, but you'd still have 30% of yourself.
This is not accurate because of the distribution of winnings.

Example A: Player sells ten $1000 packages at 70/30.

9 packages he cashes for exactly $500
1 package he cashes for $10,500

He cashed for $15k with a 50% ROI
His investors get (500*9 + 1000 + 9500*.7) = $12,150

Example B: Player sells ten $1000 packages at 70/30.

10 packages he cashes for exactly $1500

He cashed for $15k with a 50% ROI
His investors get (1000*10 + 500*10*.7) = $13,500

Example C
: Player sells ten $1000 packages at 42% markup. He sells 70% of his action

9 packages he cashes for exactly $500
1 package he cashes for $10,500

He cashed for $15k with a 50% ROI
His investors paid $9,940
His investors get (15,000*.7) = $10,500

---

Investors of A got 21.5% ROI
Investors of B got 35% ROI
Investors of C got ~9% ROI
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08-20-2010 , 03:38 PM
There's something this is missing either you or me.

At least PTP cut's doesn't matter if we lose.

Your example was a starting bankroll of $2000 with $1000 loss, ending with $1000. If 2+2 invested 80% and i invested 20%, yes i would keep $200 and they would end with $800. But that would happen on a 70% no makeup and on a 90% no makeup the same would happen. The difference is that is if i cash for $3000 ending with $1000 profit, 1% of the 80% would get his $8 back + $7 profit, 80% would get $8+$8 and 90% would get $8+$9. But that's when there's profit.
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08-20-2010 , 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcof3
There's something this is missing either you or me.

At least PTP cut's doesn't matter if we lose.

Your example was a starting bankroll of $2000 with $1000 loss, ending with $1000. If 2+2 invested 80% and i invested 20%, yes i would keep $200 and they would end with $800. But that would happen on a 70% no makeup and on a 90% no makeup the same would happen. The difference is that is if i cash for $3000 ending with $1000 profit, 1% of the 80% would get his $8 back + $7 profit, 80% would get $8+$8 and 90% would get $8+$9. But that's when there's profit.
I thought PTP's no makeup still had stakeback. If that's not the case, then wow those deals are even worse.

edit: on the 2p2 system 1% is worth $30, there is no other math involved. It would be 1% of the whole package, not 1% of 80%
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08-20-2010 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Example C: Player sells ten $1000 packages at 42% markup. He sells 70% of his action

9 packages he cashes for exactly $500
1 package he cashes for $10,500

He cashed for $15k with a 50% ROI
His investors paid $9,940
His investors get (15,000*.7) = $10,500
hmm i guess i'm starting to understand markup.

When i read "selling 70% of his action" i thought that the player was only giving 70% of the required amount to play, and that i had to invest the other 30%, which seems now incorrect.


In that case let's imagine that i wanted to give 80% cut no makeup for my investors. I would then give 80% of my action, with markup of 25% (because $1000*1.25*0.8=$1000). And 90% would mean 11.11111% markup?

If that's correct i guess i already understood the system.
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