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Old 05-28-2010, 04:17 PM   #301
zachvac
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Zaitsev View Post
Say like you sell a package, and get a nice score early, is it unethical to want to try to buy the action you sold back or give refunds?
As long as both parties agree to the deal not sure why it would be unethical...
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:28 PM   #302
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I would feel a little dirty asking unless I offered to buy it back at higher markup
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:18 AM   #303
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Sect those are some great questions... Yea, i was ignorant to the fact that my 18th place finish in last years WSOP $1500 PLH and "some" online success clouded my judgement about the $10k.. I was stupid and learned a lesson..

As far as the overlap.... My first package had dates that were all 1 day apart, meaning I am scheduled to play event X on the 1st, then Y on 3rd... The only way these tournaments would overlap is if I went deep in tourney X. When I added in the 4 additional WSOP tournaments, I made sure that all of them were on a day where I was not already scheduled to play. The investors of my 4 additional WSOP pack, understand that I might not be able to play these tournaments due to deep runs in other tournaments, and that any tournament that is not played will be refunded +MU shown here in the OP:

"Just to let you guys know, these tournaments fall in between other tournaments of mine this summer. It is going to go day by day. Meaning, If i am the final table of the June 11th Venetian $550 deep, I will not be able to play the June 12th 1k etc. If I can not play any of the above tournaments, the BI will be added to payouts WITH MU."

And for my first package, all but 1 investor has a part of my 2nd additional package.. And I also put a "NOTE" up stating that the schedule was tentative.. Shown here..

"NOTE: This is a tentative schedule, Some events are two and three day events, I tried my best to give myself a 1 day cushion.. Lets hope for us that I have to miss a couple of these because I am at a final table!"



These are by no means the answer to this situation, as I don't truly have an answer, I know it is a tough one to call.. But they are just how I personally dealt with my 2 packages, and what information I tried to divulge to my investors..

As far as the EV of the packages, I believe that all of the events are +EV, all of them are 340-550 venetians, and 1ks and 1.5ks from WSOP. The only 1.5k+ tourney I am playing is the last 2.5k and and is part of the second package.. And the added tourneys are are after Venetians, which I would have to be at the final table to overlap...

**As I said earlier, I wish I could have just put them all in one package, like I have done with 99% of the 30-40 packages I have sold so far in the marketplace... The reason I couldn't do this is because of my backers position on his allotment of my summer funds... Normally I would have just packaged everything together in one..
I'm not doubting your intentions or whatever but the one thing you seem to be missing is all of the extra packages devalues the FIRST package. All you've described is how the people in the later packages were ok with everything. This may be something you've overlooked but I'm pretty sure it's bothers some investors.
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Old 05-29-2010, 07:36 AM   #304
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Zaitsev View Post
Say like you sell a package, and get a nice score early, is it unethical to want to try to buy the action you sold back or give refunds?
No harm in asking. I would be furious as an investor if you just bought back without asking permission first as i am buying a piece of you based on the overall value of the package. For example, if you sell a package at 1.2 of mostly 1k-1500 wsop tournaments and one 5k, and you score big in a 5k then buy the rest of your action back, you are screwing over your investors as they likely would not have bought action to 5k alone at 1.2.
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Old 05-29-2010, 02:22 PM   #305
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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No harm in asking. I would be furious as an investor if you just bought back without asking permission first as i am buying a piece of you based on the overall value of the package. For example, if you sell a package at 1.2 of mostly 1k-1500 wsop tournaments and one 5k, and you score big in a 5k then buy the rest of your action back, you are screwing over your investors as they likely would not have bought action to 5k alone at 1.2.
This would be downright theft to do it without permission first, and I would expect the buyout price would have to be higher markup than was initially bought. But it's pretty clear both sides would have to agree. If I buy something from a store they can't hunt me down and force me to sell it back to them.

Also another question people have pointed out it's wrong but say someone sells shares to say a bunch of 1.5k's that are supposed to be soft then a few tough 10k's in the same package. Then they miss a few of the 1.5k's. I know that's wrong but what should be the outcome of that? Does it change whether it's an obvious excuse (was tired didn't feel like playing) or legit (I just discovered I have cancer)? I guess legit people would be more likely to not make a huge fuss but say someone just decides they're too tired or posts that they got drunk or something else that clearly should have been avoided but causes them to miss the soft events. Obviously their rep gets ruined for the future but is there currently anything investors can do? Obviously they should ask for their money back if the 1.5k's were the first ones but say they've already played a 10k they can't just back out that lets them freeroll the 10k. I mean it seems most people don't do this and to most people their rep is worth way more than the ev gained of charging more MU to play in high buy-in events but just wondering what the punishment would be for doing that.
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Old 05-30-2010, 01:05 AM   #306
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Sorry if this has already been discussed, or if there's a really easy answer that I'm just too stupid to see. But what happens with markup when someone makes a day two so has to miss a tournament in their package? Seems like they just pocket markup for a tournament they didn't play. Again, sorry if I'm just coming off incredibly stupid and there's a simple explanation for this.
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Old 05-30-2010, 01:06 AM   #307
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

they refund the buyin+the markup...
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Old 05-30-2010, 01:49 AM   #308
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

That makes way too much sense for me to even consider it.
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:07 PM   #309
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

someone has a clue or chart which ROIs are possible in the common events. lets say WSOP ME, 12$ 180, 24$ 90 KO, sunday million, random SCOOP/FTOPs events ect.
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Old 05-31-2010, 04:16 PM   #310
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

-100% is possible in all of them
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:37 PM   #311
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I haven't really used the marketplace much (although I almost definitely will in the future), but I put together a similar package to the ones that get generated here, so I guess I just had a couple questions. I read most of the thread but not all, so I apologize if this any of this has been covered:

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Originally Posted by cts View Post
The posters posting the ONE LAST FINAL PACKAGE on their 5th package after I have bought pieces of their first and second are really tilting me by now. Each one takes away from the EV of previous packages and it is unfair and unethical towards investors. This shouldn't be allowed in the future.
Would you feel similarly about a horse whose package you bought who then sought out one-time deals during the same timeframe?

To use my example, I didn't include today's $5K shootout in my package, but at some point after busting yesterday's $1500, I had a hankering to play the $5K. I guess my question is, do investors/buyers here consider selling 1-timers in the midst of a package deal to be unethical or unlikable? I decided that it's basically not fair to my investors (in addition to being a hassle) basically because I have a $1500 tomorrow that IS part of the package schedule. I guess the critical mass of marketplace investors would agree with that?

On the flipside, I do think in theory there should be some way for me to take one-time deals that is still reasonable and fair to my original backers, and I guess the only simple way to do that is include it as a stipulation in the deal up front--that I reserve the right to take 1-time deals not included in the original package. Would that change the rate investors are willing to pay drastically?

***

Unrelated stuff I guess I'd like to mention in the email agreements I write in any potential future packages I sell:

1) Tipping policy (one of my investors specifically said I shouldn't tip, and I realized I should have asked everyone ahead of time)

2) Updates - just some mention of how and when I'll be doing updates (I prefer not to tweet regular chip counts) while agreeing to any special requests (like text/email updates every break)

3) Taxes - I'm just not sure what the best way to approach and phrase this is. My basic thinking is that I will need investors to sign for taxes once cashes hit a certain point, but I don't know if it's necessary to spell out what amount that is. I think it should go without saying that everyone is responsible for paying his own taxes based on the laws of his country, but if I cash for 50K total on a 40K package, I just don't care that much about getting 7 tax forms signed. However, if I cash for 140K, I'm going to need people's info for the taxman. Just curious how buyers and sellers think this should be codified or how often it gets codified.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:24 PM   #312
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Shane,

Full disclosure up front is the way to go, and investors value that incredibly. If you post in your package that you reserve the right to take 1x deals for events not included then there isn't a problem. As far as that hurting what rate you can charge, that is something investors would have to consider. I don't see it crippling the value of a package or anything, but with the WSOP it would really suck as an investor to miss a bunch of high value MTT's in a package because your horse is playing other things for other people. One thing to consider is buyers might actually want that action, so it might be better of including those events in the package and lowering your markup for the entire package accordingly.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:33 PM   #313
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Shane,

Full disclosure up front is the way to go, and investors value that incredibly. If you post in your package that you reserve the right to take 1x deals for events not included then there isn't a problem. As far as that hurting what rate you can charge, that is something investors would have to consider. I don't see it crippling the value of a package or anything, but with the WSOP it would really suck as an investor to miss a bunch of high value MTT's in a package because your horse is playing other things for other people. One thing to consider is buyers might actually want that action, so it might be better of including those events in the package and lowering your markup for the entire package accordingly.
This all sounds like good advice, it just gets into a lot of gray areas in terms of the number of spontaneous, 1-time opportunities that might come up during the WSOP. Like I might spontaneously want to play the 1500 2-7 NL, but adding that to my package at the beginning would be a little "absurd" and lower the value of the package.

Also, as a default I am trying to put together the most attractive offer to investors at the top, which will also be what I consider the overall highest EV set of events for myself, so it's really just about accounting for the possibility of wanting to play the occasional lower-EV 1-timers for fun and gauging that vs. investors' overall confidence/interest in the horse based on that possibility. I'm not sure if there would be a way to add in a clause where investors could opt-in or opt-out of extraneous events, seems like it would be super complicated, but so do a lot of aspects of this business!
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:56 PM   #314
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I would appreciate if anyone had any advice with respect to canadians being backed by americans and if/how they can fully recover the 30% withholding tax. There's a lot of misinformation being spread, and I've had to put off playing until I can get everything sorted out for sure.

I wrote quite a bit about it in the thread for my package. link= https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...ackage-784872/

If anyone thinks it's relevant, feel free to paste it in here or maybe make a sticky with all relevant information. There are a lot of people here who bought pieces of canadian players, and it seems likely that both sides are unclear as to how the actual process works. Either that, or I'm missing something ... and hopefully someone can explain it to me.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:02 AM   #315
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

prolly the best thing to do would be to go to a tax professional.
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Old 06-02-2010, 03:15 AM   #316
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Abbaddabba View Post
I would appreciate if anyone had any advice with respect to canadians being backed by americans and if/how they can fully recover the 30% withholding tax. There's a lot of misinformation being spread, and I've had to put off playing until I can get everything sorted out for sure.

I wrote quite a bit about it in the thread for my package. link= https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...ackage-784872/

If anyone thinks it's relevant, feel free to paste it in here or maybe make a sticky with all relevant information. There are a lot of people here who bought pieces of canadian players, and it seems likely that both sides are unclear as to how the actual process works. Either that, or I'm missing something ... and hopefully someone can explain it to me.
ya if anyone has more experience with this, Id like to hear as well, heard conflicting sides of information in various threads so far as well, not sure what is the truth, and I think taxes are almost "sticky" worth as it completely changes the value of a stake, depending on how much/if any you lose to taxes.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:28 AM   #317
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Being a Canadian, I just researched this again hoping like you and one other person said that we're able to reclaim almost all of the taxes that are withheld from our tournament winnings. I called the Refund Management place and unfortunately things haven't changed and as such you can only reclaim taxes that were withheld from winnings if you have had gambling losses to counter your profits. For example, say a Canadian hits a 100k score then the casino withholds 30k. You are only able to get the full 30k back if you have 100k of gambling losses that year. If you have 50k of gambling losses, you'll get 15k of the taxes withheld back. Thus, it's just a system designed so you pay 30% of your net profits for the year and not more.

Furthermore, the time frame is 12-15 weeks after you file (or 6-9 weeks if you've done it before) and you can only file when the calendar year ends. Thus, if a Canadian hits a score during this WSOP the outlook for getting the refund is between Feb and April of next year.

A possible solution that may stop taxes from being withheld up front is the 5754 form, however I have no idea this point whether a Canadian is able to use one to do this.

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Why was I told by several players that they received between 21 to 27% of the 30% taxed when they did business with RMS? I'm going to look deeply into this. If anyone reading this did business with RMS, please mention what happened with the %. Thanks.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:25 PM   #318
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

My understanding as to why these companies are able to recoup so much is because they choose to look the other way when you misreport or invent losses, and in a lot of cases they help you fabricate them.

And then they cover their own asses by having you sign a liability waver.


It looks like form 5754 is going to be the key to fixing the situation.

I've done some more research and have spent the past 2 days speaking to the IRS, and it appears as though the Rio is legally obligated to accept and accomodate you in filing these and splitting up the winnings. The agent I spoke to says that their refusal to do it is illegal. I was advised to get legal counsel if it becomes a conflict, and that the form that you would need to fill out is this: http://www.lottoreport.com/IRSForm3949a.pdf

I spoke to andy rich who is the director of poker operations for the wsop, and while he seemed sympathetic, he isnt in a position to make any changes. He forwarded me to a senior VP responsible for finance/accounting related stuff. I'm going to be speaking to him later today about this and see whether it will be possible to have them change their policy. I'll post as soon as I know more.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:59 PM   #319
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

So my american backer would need to fill that form and whenever I cash in a event, i show up with this at the Rio Cage and they're going to give the % to my american backer without being taxed (on his %)? And from what I understood, Harrahs dont want to do it and they are not allowed to refuse lol? That sounds like a lot of troubles.

Keep me updated please.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:00 PM   #320
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Pretty tilting to see things like $2 sweat threads get bumped literally every 2 minutes and people trying to sell 10k+ packages get pushed to page 5 in a day.
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:17 PM   #321
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Maybe they could split them into like small, mid and high stakes, similar to the strategy and other subforums.

There is a discussion in this thread about that issue though:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...edited-786854/
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:40 AM   #322
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

interesting to see people bought action in billyb... terryfan, having sold 88% of his action at 1.2:1 giving him a 5.6% money return and 12% freeroll on winnings. thoughts on this?
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Old 06-03-2010, 02:15 AM   #323
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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interesting to see people bought action in billyb... terryfan, having sold 88% of his action at 1.2:1 giving him a 5.6% money return and 12% freeroll on winnings. thoughts on this?
The *only* difference between this and somebody who sells 88% at no markup is that the latter has less money in his pocket. There's nothing mathematically significant about getting guaranteed return. If you think a stakee is worth the price (markup) he's asking, and he's keeping enough of himself that you think he'll play to win, then it's a good buy.
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Old 06-03-2010, 02:19 AM   #324
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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interesting to see people bought action in billyb... terryfan, having sold 88% of his action at 1.2:1 giving him a 5.6% money return and 12% freeroll on winnings. thoughts on this?
it helps we have the assurance of several valued posters that billyb is 100% not the type to spew off/dick around with investor's money. without that, i think it'd be silly for people to buy %s of others when they make a guaranteed profit. billyb/hiv are exceptions because of how established they are in the community imo
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:39 AM   #325
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by The Lipo Fund View Post
it helps we have the assurance of several valued posters that billyb is 100% not the type to spew off/dick around with investor's money. without that, i think it'd be silly for people to buy %s of others when they make a guaranteed profit. billyb/hiv are exceptions because of how established they are in the community imo
Becoming much less "acceptable" without any updates in his blog or his thread when he was supposed to play the 2-7 Triple Draw yesterday. Nothing is more tilting to a buyer than not having any clue if your person played or if they busted or whatever. I will absolutely not buy a piece of anyone in the future if they don't post how they will be updating people and if someone sells a package and does a horrible job of updating then I think it should be perfectly fine to post in any future packages about his lack of updates.
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