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Old 05-25-2010, 08:41 PM   #276
zachvac
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I doubt this thread is the cause of that. It's fine to just say "yeah can confirm trustworthy" just don't use the word vouch. Not that hard.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:20 PM   #277
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Rusemandingo View Post
I really think this thread has had some positive results with people making OPs clearer and providing more info. I think it may have had some negative effects as well. I've seen a couple threads were people mention they have references but dont mention them because they arent able to "vouch" for them. I dont see any problem with someone youve had dealings with in the past posting in your thread about that history w/o then being on the hook if something shady happens.
just make it clear what you mean when you come in a thread when you comment on people's character.

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Originally Posted by zachvac View Post
I doubt this thread is the cause of that. It's fine to just say "yeah can confirm trustworthy" just don't use the word vouch. Not that hard.
+1
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:26 PM   #278
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Might be too simple (I like simple) but.... I think the way to make this easy for both the buyer and the seller is to put together a "simple" template that sellers were required to copy, paste, & use in there listings.

This template should include basic info like... Who is selling (OPR links) What is being sold (how many games) How much is being sold (how much is seller keeping) Min & or Max %'s Seller is willing to accept, And of course the MU (if there is any )

I'm sure I have left out several things that should be in the template but I think somthing like this would make things a bit easier for both buyers and sellers!!

But what do I know. I'm just a n00b.

Plaese let me know your thoughts on somthing like this.....
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:56 PM   #279
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I think thats a pretty good idea.

Anyone have thoughts about people buying shares up and then reselling for more markup? Would that be allowed?

Last edited by TheSituation; 05-25-2010 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:15 PM   #280
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by rje8686 View Post
Just to point out one or two things. A big winning player online is going to have a much greater edge in a 1k/1500 than a $50k event. This is why there are large markups for these events 1k/1500's.

The $50k event will be a hugely tough field and GLIII understands this and hence why he cant go and charge 30% MU.

On the note of 'freerollers' and people paying for expenses. This seems common and acceptable practice on PTP and it seems some of those people filter into this forum and expect the same. In fact the std on PTP seems to freeroll on 80/20 deals.

If cts came on here tomorrow and said he had gone busto and was looking to freeroll the whole WSOP. 100% his action would sell out... just cos hes gone busto doesnt suddenly make him a bad player. Thus he would still be a worthwhile investment regardless of how much action he sold.
This is true, freerolling events by selling 100% of the buyin and charging are travel expenses are much more common on PTP. However, I wouldn't say 80/20 and freerolling is the standard because people usually have some of their own shares. PTP is definitely a place that runs differently than here but as far as things you might see in an ad here, the one other things you might notice is misunderstanding of markup and %'s being sold sometimes because it's done differently there.

I don't really see a problem with charging for travel expenses. It just seems that the market conditions are that it's more customary on PTP whereas it isn't here. It's really similar to just charging a bit more markup. A lot of the packages that have sold out here would have done so with more markup. Something with a lower markup that charges a set amount of travel expenses can have better EV than something else without expenses with a higher markup. It obviously hurts the value of the investment by adding expenses if all else remains equal, but I still don't see anything really unacceptable in doing it.
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:38 PM   #281
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Who pays the taxes on a large score?

Or, any score for that matter.
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Old 05-26-2010, 02:34 PM   #282
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Who pays the taxes on a large score?

Or, any score for that matter.
You report the money you made for your income. If you have 10% of someone who ships the wsop ME for 10mm you declare extra 1mm on your taxes and say they had 40% of themselves they declare extra 4mm on their taxes.
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Old 05-26-2010, 02:48 PM   #283
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

In my experience, they make you sign a W-2 form on the spot when you ship over 1k.
I think one time they even withheld taxes from a 5k score i had in minnesota.
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:24 PM   #284
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Great posts all around.

...

2.) Taxes. I do think it's kinda funny when someone posts "I'm from the UK so you don't have to pay taxes!" or whatever this common/misleading line is. I've done a fair amount of research into taxes from various countries for WSOP and from what I have found, the only issue is with Canadians. The Rio will hold around 30% of Canadian players' winnings and the standard is for the players to use a third party company called RMS to retreive this portion of the winnings. RMS charges a %age fee that works out to be rather small for large cashes, 1-2%, bigger for smaller cashes, 5-10%. On top of that, many people haven't received their RMS payments from last year. This is a huge issue (not always a dealbreaker) that should be very clear up front to investors. Several times now I have bought and shipped money for a share only for the person to say "by the way I'm Canadian and for taxes, blah blah blah." I just ask for the money back and leave with a poor impression of the person. There are a few Canadian players who have been extremely up front about the tax situation that I have made exceptions for and invested in, but in general, if you are from Canada and are selling WSOP action, you MUST make it known to potential investors that there are tax problems associated with any purchase.
...
Being a Canadian, I just researched this again hoping like you and one other person said that we're able to reclaim almost all of the taxes that are withheld from our tournament winnings. I called the Refund Management place and unfortunately things haven't changed and as such you can only reclaim taxes that were withheld from winnings if you have had gambling losses to counter your profits. For example, say a Canadian hits a 100k score then the casino withholds 30k. You are only able to get the full 30k back if you have 100k of gambling losses that year. If you have 50k of gambling losses, you'll get 15k of the taxes withheld back. Thus, it's just a system designed so you pay 30% of your net profits for the year and not more.

Furthermore, the time frame is 12-15 weeks after you file (or 6-9 weeks if you've done it before) and you can only file when the calendar year ends. Thus, if a Canadian hits a score during this WSOP the outlook for getting the refund is between Feb and April of next year.

A possible solution that may stop taxes from being withheld up front is the 5754 form, however I have no idea this point whether a Canadian is able to use one to do this.

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
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Old 05-27-2010, 12:10 AM   #285
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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honestly i have no problems calling that thread a straight up scam.

if no one said anything, i would bet money that someone who was casually browsing would buy a piece not being able to see through the tourbound's utter bs. I also have no idea why these threads are being closed and my posts are being deleted by mods when i am 100% correct. The fact that he is straight up lying through his teeth and continues to do so and get away with it is annoying.
I've tried to somewhat "defend" tourbound not b/c I think he's a great player, but b/c I think he gets a little mistreated or w/e. But that thread really annoyed me, I mean I previously said that I don't think ppl should come into threads questioning markups and stuff, but that thread was just ridiculous. I don't see how someone can luckbox a win in a 60 person $75 plh mtt and in turn come to the realization that their skill level warrants a 25% mu in a stacked championship event. I'm still surprised to see how easily he can sell out action to the wsop, it just demonstrates how little info-seeking investors do.

At the same time, I think a lot of the guys selling action at 25-30% MUs to the wsop may be overestimating their edge and it is a little disconcerting that nearly 100% of them are selling 70%+ of their action. But I don't state my opinions in those threads b/c I'm sure a lot of those players are better than me and I see respected members buying their action. I could even be totally wrong since I have never seen what the skill level of a wsop 1500 event correlates to in a random online mtt.

thanks
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Old 05-27-2010, 12:32 AM   #286
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

tried to catch up on this thread and didn't see exactly where the vouch/reference debate started but here's my 2 cents.

if you don't mean "my ass/money/rep is on the line if this person does something wrong" don't use the word vouch. the jvilchez incident from last fall should be lesson enough. choose your words carefully when you decide to jump into a thread to show support for someone.

iirc we discussed possible penalties for the different forms of vouching that took place in those threads. we didn't come to specific consensus on how vouching should be enforced but again iirc (bobo/gt/whomever can go back into the issues mod forum thread and reread that exchange to clarify if needed) what came out of it should have been don't vouch if you don't mean your ass is on the line alongside the thread starter. I still think "vouching" in the marketplace for the wrong person should carry up to all of the infractions a stakee gone bad could get.

also wrt to markup I'm pretty sure I deleted posts that may have included reference to/questioning the price of packages at times. if so I'm fairly confident the entire exchanges eliminated started out with basic trolling and no reasonable discussion specifically about markup and led to massive derails where the poster had a right to not have a mess of a thread that started with things like "you're horrible, good luck getting anyone to buy shares."

be specific, direct, and non-caustic to get the desired results you seek when questioning someone's prices.
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:55 AM   #287
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by cts View Post
The posters posting the ONE LAST FINAL PACKAGE on their 5th package after I have bought pieces of their first and second are really tilting me by now. Each one takes away from the EV of previous packages and it is unfair and unethical towards investors. This shouldn't be allowed in the future.
+1

Definitely learned my lesson as well...next year any piece I buy will be contingent on no overlapping packages.
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Old 05-27-2010, 11:16 AM   #288
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I don't have time to respond to all that has been said about me but I feel that my integrity is continually questioned by some people.. I would appreciate if you people read this post and links...

To Klink about Klink etc.: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61.../index124.html

^^^ That gives a DETAILED explanation of my side, many times over... I can't spend any energy on him.

I haven't been able to go through this tread entirely as I am traveling at the moment.. but I did run across Ulosttoakids post about me..

1. I have been NOTHING but cool with this guy, never had any beef what so ever.. But you want to jump on this wrong bandwaggon?? really? That is sad man, cause I haven't done anything to you... Its also sad because you make reference to my play or what not, which is laughable coming from you.

My Packages..

Investors.. My personal situation is that I am backed.. And my backer wanted a piece of my action this summer, as close to 50% as we could get the numbers..

So I had to put up the first package for my backer... I put up the ME and secondary package for myself, because I wanted to play more WSOP events, due to them being more $$ and my backing arrangements, I had to package them separate.

The 10k PLH though is totally legit for people to get mad about that, and I have apologized for it. That was me being misinformed and ignorant to a lot of facts.

And people just read what I wrote in response to Klink, and use your own judgement, please.. You can't fall into his traps.... I am a good guy, with good intentions..
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Old 05-27-2010, 12:17 PM   #289
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Tourbound- The PLH stake I can understand as a mere mistake based on ignorance based on strong results in a single big tourney.
Out of your 3 or 4 packages how many tourneys from different packages overlap? If they do overlap, don't you feel it's unfair to your original investors who bought your first package that you may or may not play all of the events due to tourneys from another package? As you stated in the link you provided you once charged a markup for a 2k tourney, but defended the decision based on 11 smaller events that you'd def. be +ev in. I feel the same thing applies here, perhaps someone bought your first package with the idea that you were not +ev in all the events but over the whole package you were +ev. What if you now play the events that he thought you were -ev in due to tourneys overlapping. Is that fair?
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Old 05-27-2010, 05:13 PM   #290
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Tourbound- The PLH stake I can understand as a mere mistake based on ignorance based on strong results in a single big tourney.
Out of your 3 or 4 packages how many tourneys from different packages overlap? If they do overlap, don't you feel it's unfair to your original investors who bought your first package that you may or may not play all of the events due to tourneys from another package? As you stated in the link you provided you once charged a markup for a 2k tourney, but defended the decision based on 11 smaller events that you'd def. be +ev in. I feel the same thing applies here, perhaps someone bought your first package with the idea that you were not +ev in all the events but over the whole package you were +ev. What if you now play the events that he thought you were -ev in due to tourneys overlapping. Is that fair?
Sect those are some great questions... Yea, i was ignorant to the fact that my 18th place finish in last years WSOP $1500 PLH and "some" online success clouded my judgement about the $10k.. I was stupid and learned a lesson..

As far as the overlap.... My first package had dates that were all 1 day apart, meaning I am scheduled to play event X on the 1st, then Y on 3rd... The only way these tournaments would overlap is if I went deep in tourney X. When I added in the 4 additional WSOP tournaments, I made sure that all of them were on a day where I was not already scheduled to play. The investors of my 4 additional WSOP pack, understand that I might not be able to play these tournaments due to deep runs in other tournaments, and that any tournament that is not played will be refunded +MU shown here in the OP:

"Just to let you guys know, these tournaments fall in between other tournaments of mine this summer. It is going to go day by day. Meaning, If i am the final table of the June 11th Venetian $550 deep, I will not be able to play the June 12th 1k etc. If I can not play any of the above tournaments, the BI will be added to payouts WITH MU."

And for my first package, all but 1 investor has a part of my 2nd additional package.. And I also put a "NOTE" up stating that the schedule was tentative.. Shown here..

"NOTE: This is a tentative schedule, Some events are two and three day events, I tried my best to give myself a 1 day cushion.. Lets hope for us that I have to miss a couple of these because I am at a final table!"



These are by no means the answer to this situation, as I don't truly have an answer, I know it is a tough one to call.. But they are just how I personally dealt with my 2 packages, and what information I tried to divulge to my investors..

As far as the EV of the packages, I believe that all of the events are +EV, all of them are 340-550 venetians, and 1ks and 1.5ks from WSOP. The only 1.5k+ tourney I am playing is the last 2.5k and and is part of the second package.. And the added tourneys are are after Venetians, which I would have to be at the final table to overlap...

**As I said earlier, I wish I could have just put them all in one package, like I have done with 99% of the 30-40 packages I have sold so far in the marketplace... The reason I couldn't do this is because of my backers position on his allotment of my summer funds... Normally I would have just packaged everything together in one..
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Old 05-27-2010, 05:55 PM   #291
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Tourbound blatantly wins WSOP ME this year and Klink hangs himself
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Old 05-27-2010, 09:19 PM   #292
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Thx tourbound for clearing that up. Best of luck this summer.
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Old 05-28-2010, 12:08 AM   #293
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I've noticed several people selling way higher than they should be. Sure I'm most certainly wrong on a few but I feel like the educated people of this forum should be helping the noobs. Those who have been buying massive amounts of people and should have a good eye (CTS, George Lind to name a couple) should help warn those that are ignorant and naive.
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Old 05-28-2010, 12:24 AM   #294
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Hey all - were my comments out of line here? Pretty positive I am right, but asking more about protocol. Felt compelled to comment, then a little bad afterwards.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...shares-794275/
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Old 05-28-2010, 12:31 AM   #295
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

No dramas there - Rupert asked questions as well.

I think you were in good company and the OP took it well.

Handled it pretty well all round imo.
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:11 AM   #296
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I wasn't sure where to post this and if it is inappropriate please delete.

My backer really put me in a rough spot this summer. I came out with 11k cash expecting to be giving live cash to be put in around 40k of events. At the last minute he backed out of coming to vegas and has no cash for me (there is a small chance he comes through monday but I severely doubt it). I have no access to a bank out here, and would rather not fly home to get money. I am in decent makeup with him but I allow him to go into the hole with me and currently he owes 4.5k of 30k makeup. (this is probably irrelevant but imo goes to why I am thinking of doing what I am doing w/out it being looked at as shady)

I want to put together a wsop package because I have to make a living when my backer is unwilling or unable to put me in anything atm.

Anyway, I have ~180k live cashes on ~100k buyins (70th last year wsop, 2nd place ventetian 500 and 2 - 2nd's in council bluffs ,IA 1k's) also have carried a 50% roi on 90 average buy in for 200k in profits online.

So all that for my basic questions of...

1) could I put a package together with stipulation I must be paid in cash in vegas?
2) If I did that, should I charge less markup?

thanks all

ps. I plan on final tabling the 1k this weekend so all the above is moot

edited to add: And I would only sell about 1/2 and pay 7% or whatever (sigh) for a swap as I'm reasonable flush online. Not sure if that matters
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:18 AM   #297
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

seems fair since you did give him first dibs on the action

you prob won't get enough action without taking online. You should just sell the shares and use some of the markup to pay the vig for live cash, and throw a 5-10% discount for live cash
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:26 AM   #298
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by snewman06 View Post
Hey all - were my comments out of line here? Pretty positive I am right, but asking more about protocol. Felt compelled to comment, then a little bad afterwards.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...shares-794275/
You could have PMed but I don't think thats out of line at all. If you were wrong people would have continued to buy or he would have came back with better info. I don't think many of these poor value threads are malicious but a lot of people hear WSOP is so soft when its more like 95% of it but some are selling to the 5% of tough stuff without realizing, or perhaps just throwing out a deal they aren't sure about to judge their own market value figuring that if people buy it they likely have the edge they think they will.
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Old 05-28-2010, 08:54 AM   #299
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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You could have PMed but I don't think thats out of line at all. If you were wrong people would have continued to buy or he would have came back with better info. I don't think many of these poor value threads are malicious but a lot of people hear WSOP is so soft when its more like 95% of it but some are selling to the 5% of tough stuff without realizing, or perhaps just throwing out a deal they aren't sure about to judge their own market value figuring that if people buy it they likely have the edge they think they will.

Thanks for feedback......after I posted my comments, I did a search and found that he did sell out a $1500 WSOP PLO tourney deal earlier in these forums. That one had no markup and he has 20% of himself. In this case, he was charging 15% MU for a much tougher tourney and selling enough to freeroll the tourney. A little suspect I think......
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Old 05-28-2010, 01:27 PM   #300
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Say like you sell a package, and get a nice score early, is it unethical to want to try to buy the action you sold back or give refunds?
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