Yes, I was well aware if HIV's degen tendencies, but I'd never heard even rumor of him being unethical/stealing money. There's a big difference. I really don't know the kid very well, but if you go look at my reference for him you'll see only the truth - I loaned him money once, which I pretty much never do, and he paid it back. I'm out almost $5k here myself.

As far as "sketchily pimps out his friend", well, I guess you're showing your true colors here too, huh? Let's just make inflammatory, unsubstantiated comments... I'll just echo another poster responding to your bump in the grudge map thread. "Very bad form, Gild."

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss it more, and leave whatever personal beef you have with me out of this thread.

thanks Noah for helping us !

why can't the investors just file charges against HIV? hell, in the real world this scum boy would be locked up for 20 years if he stole 20k from investors. in the online poker world, he writes a little letter saying that he screwed up, he's sorry, and he'll pay back over the next few years; and suddenly all is good???? seems like there's enough evidence in this thread to prosecute this little degen boy. teach this ****er as lesson.

Because most (all?) of us would rather get our money back than send him to jail. Not to mention that convincing prosecutors to take him to court is probably futile. We could file civil charges, too. And certainly win, and then have a judgment that he owes us $22k or so. Which we then would be unable to collect unless he felt like paying it.

Nobody's happy with what he did. But realistically, given his attitude, the best way for us to get paid back is to deal with a payment plan.

ok so what's your alternate plan?

fitz, as much as i hate you at the tables, i feel very bad for this situation you find yourself in. you vouched for a guy and are now the middleman, which sux.

i just found this thread through gild's bumping of his old HULHE posts vs. HIV in BBV and am really shocked. i went through it at first w/o knowing the ending and was like initially "wow, i'd never give HIV $1" then i read your posts and was like "ok, well if quaternion thinks he's a damn good lhe player...yeesh...maybe i'd give this a second thought." while i agree that investors should do their due dilligence before shipping money, if i saw references and posts like yours i'd have been more likely to invest. that said, i would also not have blamed you at all if/when this happened b/c regardless, it'd have been my responsibility to vet my horse completely.

anyways i'm sure that the way you are handling this annoyance is the highest EV for the investors and even w/o knowing you from adam personally, i wish you and the rest of the group who put money w/ jon the best.

btw - for those that are saying, "i would never give HIV a dollar" is quite annoying. do you guys understand how many "pros" out there that are just as degen as HIV? the only difference is that most people don't publicize it. HIV happened to publicize it back when he was younger because he thought it'd look cool I guess? but there's really no difference between him and a ton of other pros as far as degenerecy issues is concerned. most are not degen enough to actually play with the other persons money though. but nobody that invested in HIV figured he would be capable of that since he's been around for 5 years and has never been involved in any type of scam or shady practices. a lot of people are very degen with their own money, but very, very few are degen with other peoples money. and nobody had reason to believe he would be degen with their money. but it's annoying to hear people say that he shouldn't have been given a dollar, because "degens" are invested in all the ****ing time. that's why staking is extremely profitable. very talented players that are incapable of managing their own funds.

QFMFT

There are about 6 examples where he was involved in a scam or shady practices in the last 4 years, most of those very present on twoplustwo. I'm not even connected to the live poker circuit and I've heard crazy degen stories from his backers as well so not like it's a big secret.

Big difference between "yea he is a degen but most people in poker are HERE'S 5 K " and "hmm, here is a person who has actively tried to scam people out of money online and bragged about it, and has a history of not paying people like grimstarr back and brags about it...ah well Fitz said it was cool HERE'S 5K"

Full disclosure: I don't know you and don't hate you and have no personal feelings against you and all my interactions with you on 2p2 have been pleasant up until I have seen this farce of a thread. I am just more shocked in your lapse in judgement in recommending someone like HIV so highly and with no qualifications.

Here is what you are saying now "I really don't know the kid very well, but if you go look at my reference for him you'll see only the truth - I loaned him money once, which I pretty much never do, and he paid it back."

Here is what you said earlier... "I absolutely trust him". These are just about the strongest words you can say about someone in internet poker. You also have a very solid reputation as one of the best limit players in the world and people obviously look up to you in forums like this. When you say you "absolutely trust" someone that carries a lot of weight in a forum based on random internet people trusting people they've never met. If you had started off the sentence with "well, I don't really know him and we only traded once" do you see what a HUGE difference is from the language you used?

What annoys me (again, nothing personal) is that you absolutely knew about the stuff that went down with HIV years ago and that he has a history of being shady/a huge degen on 2p2 but you didn't even mention it in your recommendation. You gave him a highly positive, unqualified recommendation. I'm not sure how you can claim ignorance of his past when you were very active in the HIV grudgematch threads in BBV back in the day. By ignoring pretty well known facts (he instantly takes tourney winnings right to the highest stakes pokerstars limit games...hmmmmmmm, he has no money management skills, he has tried to cheat people out of money/EV in the past and laughed about it and never expressed any remorse for it, he has refused to pay people back in the past and he has essentially spent the last few years as a broke railbird) that newer posters would not know, you are essentially selling an inferior bill of goods based on your stellar reputation, thus "sketchily pimping".

I did absolutely trust him. I think putting my money behind him shows that. I didn't think being degen with his own money was particularly relevant - as others have said here, it's common, and one of the reasons that staking can be so profitable. After all, people who are good at poker *and* good with their own money don't need staking! And yes, there's a big difference between "absolutely trust" and "well, I don't really know him and we traded once", but I never said the latter. I don't really know him. I did absolutely trust him. Enough to lend him money at one point (which was paid back with no issues) and enough to back him here.

I was unaware of "[B]he has tried to cheat people out of money/EV in the past and laughed about it and never expressed any remorse for it, he has refused to pay people back in the past [\B]", and that sort of thing would definitely have thrown up a red flag. I think you're wrong about me being active in most HIV threads - as far as I know his grudge match with you is the only one I was involved in. (And in that, I left after people wouldn't understand some basic math.)

I still take some offense at you saying "sketchily", but yes, we have no personal issues - I was probably overreacting above, and your above post is fine.

Hey Fitz,

Ironically, I believe you now based on your reputation

That being said, you responded to a post in the grudgematch thread. The OP you responded to was here (Post 615). 12 posts later, I post this direct quote from a pm from Grimmstarr:

This is a post almost directly after the one you responded to which states basically, HIV cheated a guy out of 5-10k and then laughed about it (in the chat that night...you may have missed the taunting part as it was earlier in the thread). And you respond to a bunch of my posts after that so it's not an unreasonable assumption that you read the post directly after the one you responded to.

Not to mention that you read BBV back in the day and the HIV/shaundeeb/tongni trying to cheat me out of EV was the biggest story of the year in that forum.

But, if you say you don't remember or never saw these posts then you didn't. You can see though how it is a little surprising and improbable that you would not have ever seen or heard of HIV degen drama considering you posted directly in the thread and responded a bunch of times.

I don't remember those posts. But given they're in that thread, and were in it well before I quit reading it, I almost surely saw them at the time. Doh.

I'm actually totally unaware of the HIV/shaundeeb/tongni thing, so I'm going to have to go find it and read it now.

link ?

HIV/Tongni angleshoot+shaundeeb...BUSTED

Gildwulf vs. hiv/tongni busted pt 2 (timcaum's parallel thread)

Hey, remember that time you borrowed 30k from two of your close friends a few years ago with the claim that the money was in the bank (but it wasn't) and to this day still haven't paid them back while you go on modding 2p2 and making random prop bets in various forums? Because I do.

I've been emailing back and forth with HIV and we're still figuring out who is owed what, there are a couple of hiccups but it's coming along. (Nothing major, just stuff like Brad and Brett bought 10% each of him after June 4 at no markup, but didn't give him all the cash. Just makes the accounting more complicated.)

Currently it looks like each 1% share (which cost $685) should return $527, but will only get $187 right now. HIV is $22,648 short overall. When we get the details worked out I'll post a spreadsheet as a google doc and let everybody check it over.

I don't know what he has in mind for a payment plan.

Fitz,
I really really suggest you do the contract thing I suggested.

I didn't understand what you were suggested the contract say?

HIV agrees to pay a, b, c, .....z the following amounts $A, $B, $C,...$Z.. on the following schedule ____________.

a, b, c,.... agree... ? to not sue him? to not sell his debt to a, um, non-traditional collection agent?

He already had one contract, they provide money, he play a list of MTTs, and distribute profits by %. He flushed that agreement 6 ways from Sunday.

A 'contract' sounds good. But, without some sort of liability release from those who got shafted it'll be just nice sounding words to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy but without any legal weight.

I was going to ask the above too. Noah, can you explain?

Just always a good idea to have it in writing.

Basically, if you get some sort of promissory note or repayment contract, then the people who are owed money have a much more legally binding agreement of what is still owed. You can take it in front of a judge, and regardless of how many transfers/poker sites/tournament buyins/whatever were involved, he signed his name that he owes 22xxx$, and its binding. It would also act as a good starting point for all parties involved.

If nothing is in writing, a wash is much more likely.

And Boom goes the Drama Bomb.

on my phone so this will be short with typos. Also ianal and I'm lagrely clueless about this stuff so don't trust me.

Basically the above is the idea. You want **** in writing so that you have a better chance of winning in court. You also want that threat clear in hivs mind. You might want to include minimum payment requirements as well.

I think the easiest thing to do is just have hiv sign that he owes one person money and mention in the agreement that the person is to use this money to pay off hivs debts.

see heres the thing, hiv can actually win in strictly mtts and some lhe. someone stake hiv some $ online for tourneys only, theres definitely more value in hiv playing tourneys then workign a job for years with most of the $ going to the stakers. i think hes won 8 mtts out of 20 in 3 days and we're talking about 500+ entrants.

hes staked me before and ive ran up huge sums and he's always been honest about paying ppl back. hell he even sat at 400/800 and but managed not to post. chadbrowndonk was going off tho. it was just a vicious cycle bc i was on stars at some of his tables too and he never went off but managed to lose consistently 4-6 tabling 8 game. the funny thing was the donks always owned hiv, he played 8 game too str8 up and got soul read.

wtf fivesfull, we've been over this already ITT, stop posting this ****