Pm'ed Gregorio about running a weekly pool problem and got the go ahead so will start off and see how it goes. Pool is a very subjective game so hopefully there will be a decent amount of disagreement but some good general principles that come out and help your game.

I will use the same image template each week but will try and cover 8 ball, 9 ball, and snooker problems, with a brief description of the table conditions, opponent, and a question; leave it up for a week for discussion and then post an answer/analysis and a new problem. I will try and keep up an equal a mix of beginner, amateur, and advanced problems.

Should be every Friday but will probably have some small fluctuations depending on my schedule.

If you have any specific questions/problems PM me and I'll try and build a problem around it.


Problem of the week 1.

First up we have a beginner level problem inspired by one of the threads about asking to get good enough to beat your friends/avoid being hustled.

You are playing 8 ball on a small bar pool table with quite tight pockets against a competent amateur player. Your opponent has broke, but failed to sink a ball. The table looks like this at the start of your visit:



Which set of balls should you take and why?

For more advanced players, which specific ball should you generally be going for first in this layout of balls and why?

SOLUTION

***Brief Disclaimer***

All pool problems are extremely subjective. A player very confident at rail shots or bank shots looks at the table in a very different way to a very solid positional player who loathes tricky pots. This analysis is provided to hopefully open up some concepts people may have not thought about – not to provide any definitive 'right' or 'wrong' answer.

Problem number one sees us in very familiar territory to anyone who plays amateur 8 ball. A small bar table with tight pockets, a dry break, and lots of possible shots/ball layouts to consider. To a skilled player this is a bit of a non question, as both sets of balls are relatively easy to clear, but to an amateur this sort of situation can throw up some huge win or loss problems.

First off, we need to consider the general dynamic of the two positions and try and evaluate which set of balls has the higher EV to take on. In this spot, red has five very easy balls over pockets, two problem reds on the rails, and control over two pockets (albeit ones with relatively little tactical relevance). Yellow has by far the harder opening shot(s), but has no real problem balls, and although not in direct control of any pockets, blocks the black into both lower corner pockets.

Most weak 8 ball players tend to evaluate situations such as this on the basis of taking on the easiest shots first, but this is often a sizeable mistake. In this spot two hard balls on the rail with lots of distance between them and a tough black is a much trickier proposition later on than a single harder shot now (particularly on a bar table with tight pockets that are often miss cut or dead, making rail shots much tougher), and in this scenario you should nearly always be trying to get on the yellow set – even if the opening shot seems considerably harder than the red alternative.

8 ball is not a game of yardage – you don't get paid for potting any ball except the eight – and every frame has to be considered in terms of the set giving the best EV to pot the eight, not any other ball(s). This point is exacerbated by the fact that in 8 ball each ball you pot of your own set makes your opponent's life easier, as it not only opens up the table for them, but also hugely decreases your options when setting snookers or playing safe.

In this frame the hardest shots will come last if you take red, and that means that if you miss you will lose the frame a very large percentage of the time due to the now very hard table dynamic. Note that this is basically the polar opposite with yellow, where the logical balls to take last are both close to pockets, easy to pot from many places on the table, and blocking the black into the two corners (hugely increasing your EV if you miss a yellow before clearing).

In the case of problem one, weak players in such a situation will often pot every easy red and then seem confused when they miss their hard/blocked balls and go on to lose, questioning why they keep losing such frames when they appeared so close winning – usually as they sit and watch their opponent snooker them or simply clear up on the now very open table. They miss the fact that having a 100% chance at a hard clearance is a much worse bet than having a 90% chance at an easy one – a point crucial to understanding which balls to take on at the start of 8 ball games if you are just staring out.

Before getting into the more advanced second question, it is worth pointing out again that due to the crudeness of the diagrams and the difficulty identifying exact angles, there is no one right or wrong answer to such a question, more an opportunity to try and highlight some extra concepts involved in gauging which ball(s) to take on first in 8 ball.

In my opinion the answer in this case is to usually go for the slightly tricky yellow cut back into the middle pocket. With lower left backspin/draw (hitting the cue ball low and to the left as to to the right of the diagram) the white will screw up to leave you a choice of yellows into the left hand corner, as well as opening up the pocket to the only tricky ball of yellow's set – the one just to the left of the middle. Something along the lines this:



This is a simpler shot in the long run than taking the far left yellow to the corner (which requires more draw, or a cushion hit and will often leave a greater distance between cue and object ball/harder angle/less options), or the two cushion option from the middle.

With the middle draw shot, you are left with future very simple cue ball control, as you will rarely be having to be doing much more than a few short range pots/screw shots or occasional rail hits to get onto the next ball with the balls so close to each other and open down the right hand side of the table. Minimising cue ball movement is essential to all long runs of balls if you are just starting out at pool, and this is a classic situation where a slightly technical shot early has the potential to pay a huge simplicity dividend later on, as from then on leaving the cue ball anywhere near the middle of that table should leave you at least one simple pot.


Solution: You should take yellows to gain maximum simplicity and the more solid end game, and you should generally be playing the yellow into the middle pocket with draw and left hand side to maximise simplicity depending on the exact angle/ball placements and your playing style.

Yellow, zero balls on the cushion and 2 yellows blocking 2 possible pockets to sink the black.

Would start with either the yellow near middle pocket or the one of the far left of the table, but prob leading towards one on the far left. Screw back off top left cushion for next yellow in the same pocket, or if the angle is straighter than it looks, draw it back about 10-12 inches for the yellow to the centre

probably take yellows, look easy enough to clear at one visit. probably take the one nearest the bottom middle first, only thing we really need to do is open up a pocket for the yellow below and to the left of the cueball and that does it, depending on the exact angle either running through off a couple of cushions, or screwing back if it's straight enough, for one of the two in baulk

Yellows everyday like brandy said about them blocking the pockets for the black

It's a bit harder to tell but it looks like you can take the ball nearest to the middle come off 2 cushions around the back of the two at the top leaving the top 2 on plus the middle ball incase you over run

If you was going to take the top left one i'd stun it off 2 cushions for the other in the same pocket but like the first option better cause you could be left with a harder shot if you leave the white near the two reds over the middle

This is the shot I'd take too. The reason I wouldn't shoot at that corner shot first like Brandy wants to is that, especially on a tight table, I wouldn't trust myself to make that shot. This, however, I know I can.

A beginner take: from this initial position it seems like most of the reds would be fairly straightforward shots and that you could probably clear most of the table since a lot of them are almost buried in the pocket, but the one along the bottom right cushion presents the biggest problem. Yellows are more nicely spread out and the general position of the balls (slightly offset of the center of the table) means you'll probably have at least a semi-decent shot at a ball most of the time.

Doesn't this also mean the black might obstruct your shot at both those yellows too? Or is this something that shouldn't be worried about?

Well, where on the table are you afraid of the cue ball ending up if you're just down to those 2 yellows? There's a pretty small window behind the 8 that leaves you blocked. It should be easy for you to avoid ending up there on any previous shot, and it would be very difficult for the red guy to leave you there on purpose.

This is true. I guess my question speaks more about my inconsistency with shot making, especially longer than half the table.

Like everyone else so far, I like yellow. Although yellows are blocking 2 corner pockets, I think an equally large deterrent from selecting reds is the lone ball on the long cushion with yellows blocking positional paths to it from every other ball. There's only one good path to that ball, which involves getting the CB near the bottom rail and using the ball hanging in the corner to come one cushion across the table, but it won't allow for a good angle on the ball on the rail.

I like playing the yellow closest to the side pocket first, clearing the path for the ball to its left in the middle of the table, and coming two rails underneath the two balls positioned near the bottom left corner, and hitting the long cushion to get position on the aforementioned ball near center table.

i would run it this way

Are you allowed to take the black into the side pocket in english 8 ball?

Yeah any pocket

Whoa. Really?

My first visit to the billiards forum...far from my first visit to the pool table. I would consider myself a well-above-average player, but it's been a while since I've picked up a cue--probably 8 years. My primary game was 9-ball, but I also had lots of experience with 8-ball, and a lot with straight-pool (14.1 continuous) and one-pocket as well.

Having given just a very little bit of my background, I would take the reds every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Reasons: We're on a crowded 6-ft bar table with tight pockets and they're obstructing two of those pockets, while simultaneously having 5/7 balls very close to pockets, making them very easy shots. You're already in great shape to make the two in the upper right corner, which are two of the more difficult red shots. If you make the ball, but miss getting shape on any one of the shots along the way, you can use one of the incredibly easy shots (like the one in the upper left corner) to regain position. If you should happen to miss a shot entirely, there is a good chance that the red balls obstructing at least two of the pockets will make life very difficult for your opp. Along the same lines, if we take the yellows, you're having to navigate the cue ball all over the table, most shots requiring some english and one or even two rails to get shape on the next ball. All this weaving in and out of balls makes it very easy to bump another balls and totally screw up your run-out. The yellows also provide much less easy/close shots and therefore less opportunity to easily get back in line. Also, if we take the yellows and miss, even a novice pool player could easily run out at least 5 of the 7 red balls, because again, they're so close to the pockets. The only difficult decision, having take the reds, is how you're going to get shape on the 8-ball. But, this is going to be a "difficult" shot whether you're shooting the yellows or the reds, IMO. Take the lower-variance route and go for the reds, ftw.

Also, look at how 5 of the 7 yellow balls are all vying for the lower middle and the lower left pockets, 3 of which wanna go in the side pocket at the bottom of the diagram. One of those yellows is obstructing another yellow. Imagine how you're going to attack those balls. How are you planning on clearing the path for the obstructed ball and then getting back around to shoot that now previously-obstructed ball in? Another two-rail shot where the angle of entry is less than ideal. I could go on, I'm sure, but I'll stop now.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

yea thats why i asked, i wasnt sure the rules were the same as normal 8 ball. I agree the reds present the most natural layout with position being obvious from one ball to the other. Even the shot from the last red to the black isnt that hard as long as you have an angle.

6 and 7 are gonna be really tough shots on a tight table, esp position from 6 to 7 and 7 to 8

not really. position on 6 comes naturally from the 5 and 6 to 7 is also easy as long as you leave a good angle on the 6. Top left english on the 6 off two rails is natural for thes 7. 7 to 8 we either come off one cushion or goto the bottom rail and back up for position in the side.

What we have to remember is that an 8 ball table is really small so no open shot is really that difficult but sometimes when all the balls are in the middle one of our own balls can impede with our position for the other. The reds being spread out and allowing open paths from one to the other allow us to avoid that.

Neither layout is that difficult though.

oh well...agree to disagree, I personally don't think its a close decision at all

It can defo be played in whichever way best suits you, but I think the reds provide a far easier runout opportunity. I'd be curious to see how you plan to attack the yellows, Brandy, and whether you still think they'd be easier than the reds once you really think about it. A lot of it depends on shot-making ability and your confidence in how well you play shape. But I think most pros would probably play it the simpler way--which is a big part of a bar-table game--as it is the most fluid and it allows for more options in how you get out. (If you miss position on one, you can use another to get back in line.)

If I was playing 9 ball or american 8 ball where you guys play with buckets for pockets I can see an option for playing reds. On a tight English 8 ball table its a total different story.

Position from 6 to 7 is going to be tough to leave yourself less that 2 feet away from 7 cos of the 2 yellows blocking the path for the white. Position from 7 to 8 has to be pretty damn accurate to not snooker yourself and leave yourself in good shape to put the 8 in the top centre...all this while facing an inevitable tough pot on the 7

Taking reds seems a really strange option the whole thing is trying to make the run out easy there are too many problem shots taking reds and your position has to be spot on

If i was taking reds going off baptz lay out i'd leave the 1 and 2 till last make the position on the black a whole lot easier

reds and its not even close imo red one problemn ball and natural positioning and ducks get the the onbe problem ball asap and its a breeze

yellow hove many balls with not alot of options and alot more difficult position play

Balls being near the rails is for some reason being used as a reason not to shoot red but in reality this just makes the position play easier more natural and on 9/10 bartables even with tight pockets easier to make

Yellow is prob better on a level table, on a bad or unknown bar table think I might take red for more insurance balls. Otoh I really hate those pocket speed down the rail shots I see so many roll out due to the slate/cushion/whatever. Maybe I should play on better tables.

i guess it's a pocket size thing but you should be able to take care of things quite quickly if you go red...

define competent amateur tbh.