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Old 03-09-2019, 08:11 PM   #226
King~of~Diamonds
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
I also 100% understand why David wants to get Kelley out, but him not pulling the trigger is so incredibly risky. Kelley will figure it out eventually, and then it will be 50/50 who survives. I don't understand why he keeps postponing it.
Itís not completely daveís decision.

Is kelley omniscient in this scenario?

There are good reasons not do it with a swap coming up. You dont want to cut ties with lauren, kelley, and wardog to save some guy Chris who doesnt trust you or follow instructions
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:12 PM   #227
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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I also 100% understand why David wants to get Kelley out, but him not pulling the trigger is so incredibly risky. Kelley will figure it out eventually, and then it will be 50/50 who survives. I don't understand why he keeps postponing it.
Itís not completely daveís decision.

Is kelley omniscient in this scenario?

There are good reasons not do it with a swap coming up. You dont want to cut ties with lauren, kelley, and wardog to save some guy Chris who doesnt trust you or follow instructions. They cant even count on Chris to vote with them
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:56 PM   #228
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

The main reason to vote for Chris IMO is that they specifically asked him not talk to others about the vote, yet he did anyways.
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:16 PM   #229
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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i dont even know what this is
Spoiler:
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:19 PM   #230
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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I also 100% understand why David wants to get Kelley out, but him not pulling the trigger is so incredibly risky. Kelley will figure it out eventually, and then it will be 50/50 who survives. I don't understand why he keeps postponing it.
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It’s not completely dave’s decision.

Is kelley omniscient in this scenario?

There are good reasons not do it with a swap coming up. You dont want to cut ties with lauren, kelley, and wardog to save some guy Chris who doesnt trust you or follow instructions. They cant even count on Chris to vote with them
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The main reason to vote for Chris IMO is that they specifically asked him not talk to others about the vote, yet he did anyways.
Also, it doesn't seem like Kelley is on great footing. Her name is being thrown around too much. She's not in a position of power. The thing saving her appears to be Wardog's desire to keep her around so that people talk about voting her out instead of voting him out*. I don't think Dave has to worry about Kelley as much as he has to worry about Wardog. Of course, we are missing some key information on where Purple Lauren stands in all this. is her loyalty to Wardog or to Kelley or is she more of a free agent?

Is Rick wanting his main alliance to be with Dave or with Wardog?

*And don't get me wrong, Kelley has been trying to reinforce that idea multiple times. I know she hasn't been sitting back doing nothing. But she's still under the stigma of being a known hard playing returnee. It's not a good spot right now. I'm glad she's hanging in there. I was sad Chris got voted out a little for Chris (he seems like a decent dude despite having a pee pee), but mostly because I thought Kelley's best chance at actually getting some decent footing in the game was if Wardog, Chris, and Lauren decided to make a foursome.

I'd probably be rooting FOR Rick and Dave right now if they weren't coming after Kelley so hard. It's a sucky spot for me at the moment because I like rooting for Wentworth, but I also appreciate how much Dave and Rick are scheming and plotting and I enjoy their senses of humor.

next time on survivor
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Last edited by Soncy; 03-09-2019 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:39 PM   #231
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

At risk of starting a whole other thing here, I'm just going to point out that Tai is a gay man. I suspect that people who are against women just because of our lack of a pee pee are also against Tai because he's gay. It may seem like they should be even more FOR Tai since he 'doesn't like women' either, but I don't think that's how it actually works.
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Old 03-09-2019, 10:02 PM   #232
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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no biggy, they can't swim anywhere
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:09 PM   #233
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

Neither can Keith. They should eat him
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Old 03-10-2019, 12:57 AM   #234
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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Is Rick wanting his main alliance to be with Dave or with Wardog?
I'm guessing he wants to keep as many options open for himself as possible. There is no reason to choose between them until he has to. I also think it's a good point that you can keep the tribe unity with Kelley/Wardog/Lauren simply by sacrificing Chris, who wasn't following instructions anyways.

Maybe we will get an explanation at the start of the next episode. It's hard to analyze their decision without knowing why they did it, and obviously Survivor didn't show that to us to keep the tribal council suspenseful. So hopefully we get a good confessional to explain it.
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Old 03-10-2019, 01:23 AM   #235
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

It’s so crazy that Chris never threw them under the bus in his conversation with Wardog. Such a stroke of luck for David and Rick

I guess Chris might have wanted it to sound like his idea and he didnt want wardog to know how closely he was workingg with them. but not dropping their names is so fortuitous
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Old 03-10-2019, 02:21 AM   #236
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

probably because he knew David didn’t want him to tell Wardog, so Chris was covering his tracks so that Wardog wouldn’t go to David with it. or something
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:35 AM   #237
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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um, because thats not what you said lol. you said she was holding everyone to her standards. that is not what she was doing. these are different things. she just wanted to save the chickens because she assumed she was going home, as i explained in my post a while ago
You are bending the narrative to get to your conclusion. She did more than trying to save the chickens before she was going home.

*She asks someone to set the chickens free.
*She gets confrontational with the tribe to not eat the chickens.
*When Wardog points out how stupid her logic is, she says "OK I'm now a vegetarian", just to win the argument since Wardog was attacking her logic. What do you think the odds are that she is still a vegetarian today?
*We see the whole tribe being irritated about her point-of-view.
*They don't eat a chicken before the immunity challenge.
*She takes the flint and runs off when they finally decide to kill a chicken.
*She lies about hiding the flint to David his face.
*She doesn't admit at tribal council that she took the flint.

What exactly is she doing if the result is not her holding the others to her standards? She didn't say "I wont eat chicken if you kill it.". She did 10x that.




Quote:

if I look closely, I will see that you claim Tai "made people respect his view" but "was never confrontational"

yet apparently Wendy was the confrontational one and not Wardog, when all Wendy was doing was defending her own view. something you credit Tai for doing, but criticize Wendy for doing. we have parallel actions here, but you look at them favorably coming from Tai, and disfavorably coming from Wendy

and then you say it's not the opinion that matters, but how you motivate it. what does that mean?! so you are admitting you're only judging the position by the person who delivers it, and not by the position itself. exactly.

and...you were the one who said the position matters, because one of your reasons it was ok for tai was "his position made sense." when they have the exact same position. so you're moving the goalposts again

if you really want to talk about sexism, the whole point is that people overwhelmingly tend to give male survivor players the benefit of the doubt, while assuming only the worst motivations out of the female players without ever trying to understand their perspective. you just see what wendy did and immediately assume she did so for horrible reasons, and make no attempt to actually understand why she did that. or even understand what she was doing in the first place.

its normal for people to have biases. i wish people wouldn't get so defensive about it. there's nothing wrong with that; it would be impossible not to. it's only a problem when people double down on it, rather than doing the tiniest amount of introspection/reflection to realize maybe there is a disparity in how male vs female players are judged. there's clear examples of this time and time again in these threads, but instead people continue to insist it never has anything to do with gender. that seems pretty unlikely to me.
What I am trying to say is that 2 people can have the exact same opinion, and 1 of the opinions can be stupid as **** and 1 of the opinions can be a normal, intelligent opinion. I don't understand why you don't understand this. Your motivation why you hold an opinion is most of the time more important than your opinion itsself.

Maybe I need to point it out with an example. There are a lot of people that held the opinion a few years ago "I wont vote for Hilary Clinton. ". People had a lot of reasons. Do you think that all reasons were equal? Or were some people using a reason that made them seem like there were dogs more intelligent than them, while other reasons were reasonable & intelligent?




Finally, you point to something vague like "men are given the benefit of the doubt" which is very easy to say without backing it up with any proof. Don't these threads point out exactly how bad men are at the game, too? Woo & Tai are some good examples. Every challenge beast that doesn't know how to play the tactical side of the game.
If I look at last season, David vs Goliath: Dan, Carl
Isn't this thread saying that Chris was voted out because he did stupid things?
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:52 AM   #238
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

Seeing this whole Wendy/flint stuff, I wonder if there's anything in the rules that says you can't hold the tribe hostage over a tribe item, ie, Wendy knows she's on the bottom, hides the flint in unknown location, then says "if you vote me out tonight your flint is gone forever. Keep me around and I'll go get it after tribal." Or if Jeff would intervene in some way if they did vote her out anyway, by giving a new flint? Obviously a terrible social move to do, but someone could conceivably extend their game doing such maneuver.
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Old 03-10-2019, 12:02 PM   #239
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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Seeing this whole Wendy/flint stuff, I wonder if there's anything in the rules that says you can't hold the tribe hostage over a tribe item, ie, Wendy knows she's on the bottom, hides the flint in unknown location, then says "if you vote me out tonight your flint is gone forever. Keep me around and I'll go get it after tribal." Or if Jeff would intervene in some way if they did vote her out anyway, by giving a new flint? Obviously a terrible social move to do, but someone could conceivably extend their game doing such maneuver.
people have openly sabotaged their tribe before, so i dont see how that would be against the rules

that would also be destroying your game because you would have 0 jury chances
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Old 03-10-2019, 12:25 PM   #240
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

I'm glad you're at least willing to engage in this discussion in a respectable way, although I do have many disagreements.

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You are bending the narrative to get to your conclusion. She did more than trying to save the chickens before she was going home.
in this specific quote, I was responding to the exact words you said. so in no way was I bending a narrative. you said she was holding everyone to her standards. she was not

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
*She asks someone to set the chickens free.
as I said before, I took that to be in jest. especially the way she was laying down right after the challenge with her hurt ankle, and frankly she seemed a bit delirious. I did not take that as a serious request.

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
*She gets confrontational with the tribe to not eat the chickens.
I disagree with this characterization. why do you consider her confrontational, but not wardog? if anyone was imposing their standards on other people, it was Wardog interrogating her, not vice versa. she explained her reason in confessional, and when asked by tribe members. I don't see how you can call this confrontational

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*When Wardog points out how stupid her logic is, she says "OK I'm now a vegetarian", just to win the argument since Wardog was attacking her logic.
I'd like to ask you why this is a bad thing for her. You clearly believe it is the "motivation" of the position that matters, not the position. So shouldn't you approve of this? She believed in her position so strongly that she was willing to extend it to becoming a vegetarian so that she wouldn't be a hypocrite. Again, how does this conform with all your arguments that it is the motivation that matters? This comment should have won you over, by your own logic.


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What do you think the odds are that she is still a vegetarian today?
I have no idea, and frankly I don't see why it's relevant. And I also don't think it's impossible by any means that she is still a vegetarian today, she very well could be. Would that change anything for you?

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
*We see the whole tribe being irritated about her point-of-view.
The whole tribe, really? Or was it just the people who already wanted to vote her out? Because I saw Rick and David being perfectly fine with it.

Of course because of the nature of how Survivor works and the fact that a TC was coming, any disagreement is going to be used as fuel to vote a person out, when you already wanted to vote that person out.

Also, I thought we were complaining about Wendy holding others to her standards. But it's ok for others to hold Wendy to their standards?

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
*They don't eat a chicken before the immunity challenge.
not sure the relevance of this. isn't it because they wanted to see if they'd lay eggs first? also they asked who would kill it and some people said "not me" -- doesn't look like anyone particularly wanted to do it.

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
*She takes the flint and runs off when they finally decide to kill a chicken.
I've already explained what I think of this multiple times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
*She lies about hiding the flint to David his face.
*She doesn't admit at tribal council that she took the flint.
this part was clearly strategical since it would be suicide to admit it. not sure how you would hold that against her.

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
What exactly is she doing if the result is not her holding the others to her standards? She didn't say "I wont eat chicken if you kill it.". She did 10x that.
lol, I'm pretty sure if you watch the episode, she literally said that quote exactly.






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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
What I am trying to say is that 2 people can have the exact same opinion, and 1 of the opinions can be stupid as **** and 1 of the opinions can be a normal, intelligent opinion. I don't understand why you don't understand this. Your motivation why you hold an opinion is most of the time more important than your opinion itsself.

Maybe I need to point it out with an example. There are a lot of people that held the opinion a few years ago "I wont vote for Hilary Clinton. ". People had a lot of reasons. Do you think that all reasons were equal? Or were some people using a reason that made them seem like there were dogs more intelligent than them, while other reasons were reasonable & intelligent?
this isn't the same thing. wendy and tai were both against eating the chicken for the same reason: they felt bad for the chicken and didn't want to kill it. comparing this to the 2016 election is quite a stretch, as people have millions of different reasons for their votes. here, it is very simple to understand why they didn't want to eat the chicken. they both saw value in the chicken as a living creature and did not want to kill it.

that is why i can't understand saying one of them has a good position and one of them doesn't. what do you think is different about their positions? what is different about their reason? because i don't see any difference.

and once again, if you keep criticizing her motivation, then shouldn't it count to her credit that she declares herself a vegetarian now? she is digging in and sticking to her guns, showing it is her genuine position that she doesn't want animals to be killed. so i can't understand why you hold that against her, based on your own reasoning.



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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
Finally, you point to something vague like "men are given the benefit of the doubt" which is very easy to say without backing it up with any proof.
each time this disparity gets pointed out, people yell about making it about sexism. then when i make the general description, you ask for specific examples. it's a circular thing. there are countless examples in these threads just over the last couple seasons. many have been pointed out when they happen. frankly, you will never see it if you don't want to.

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
Don't these threads point out exactly how bad men are at the game, too? Woo & Tai are some good examples. Every challenge beast that doesn't know how to play the tactical side of the game.
If I look at last season, David vs Goliath: Dan, Carl
Isn't this thread saying that Chris was voted out because he did stupid things?
first, I'm so glad you brought up Dan from last season, because as I pointed out in that thread, no one criticized him. and he was an awful player.

but otherwise, you're missing the point. of course it gets pointed out when men make bad moves too. the difference is the frequency, the degree, and frankly the vitriol, with which it gets pointed out. there is a huge disparity. even talking about the 'challenge beasts' -- no one criticizes them. there is 0 criticism of Joe this season despite tons of Aubry criticism when they are in the exact same position.

even with the criticism of Chris, it is limited to the specific move he made rather than extending it to the rest of his character. people continually say he seems like a good guy, etc -- the criticism is only trying to find the mistake in his gameplay. which is how it should be!!! but the same courtesy rarely gets extended to criticism of the women. and that is the problem. people are so quick to extend it past the game and into their character/personality in ways they don't do for men.
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Old 03-10-2019, 01:33 PM   #241
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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as I said before, I took that to be in jest.
This is where you go off the rails.
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Old 03-10-2019, 02:30 PM   #242
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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*She asks someone to set the chickens free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcohen View Post
as I said before, I took that to be in jest.
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Originally Posted by Didace View Post
This is where you go off the rails.
ok, I just went back to watch her conversation with Rick again. she literally did not ask him to set the chickens free. here is the conversation (there were subtitles, so no dispute over what was said):

W: You guys aren't going to kill the chickens are you?
R: I think they're going to get at least one, but not today
W: What did the chickens do?
R: We eat chicken back home though, right?
W: These chickens don't deserve to die
R: We're bleeding heart hypocrites
W: If we can help a life we should
R: I'm with you
W: Convince them not to kill the chickens, then...to prove it (as she is smiling and laughing)
R: I mean I'm not setting the chickens free (also smiling)
W: Would you tell on me if I release the chickens?
R: I promise I wouldn't tell on you. But I think it would come back to haunt you
W: I need an accomplice
R: Count me out

Rick then gives a confessional saying: "I don't think I've ever met anyone like Wendy. She's a lovable, emotional nut"

so I am not off the rails. she did not "ask someone to set the chickens free." She asked him to convince them not to kill them, and then asked if he would tell on her if she released them. she did not ask him to do it.

and importantly, the whole conversation is loose and lighthearted. She's laying down and they are both smiling and laughing

people are treating this convo like its some serious conspiracy where she's demanding Rick to free the chickens, but that is not the tone of it whatsoever. and she did not make that request of him, or pressure him to do it. it was absolutely not "confrontational." it was friendly


whether she frees the chicken herself in a later episode is besides the point. she never asked Rick to do it, and I still think the tone of the conversation was mostly in jest
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Old 03-10-2019, 02:38 PM   #243
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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W: Would you tell on me if I release the chickens?
R: I promise I wouldn't tell on you. But I think it would come back to haunt you
W: I need an accomplice
You can quibble with the exact words, but she is without a doubt asking for help to free the chickens. And the tone may have been light-hearted, but her intent was clear.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:03 PM   #244
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

she’s more asking if it would be okay if she did it, rather than asking him to do it. at least in my opinion

and you’re the one who said I’m going off the rails by saying it was in jest, but now you’re agreeing the tone was lighthearted but saying that doesn’t matter
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:21 PM   #245
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

Comfort > Chickens btw
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:08 AM   #246
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

Finally watched Wednesday's episode so this is my grunch:

Stupid move for David and Rick to not pull the trigger on either Wardog/Wentworth and take out their own ally Chris instead.

The way I see their tribe Wardog/Wentworth/Lauren is a trio and David/Chris/Rick were another and Wendy is a loner.

It's especially bad for David because now he burned Wendy, and her, Wardog, and Rick still know he was gunning for Wentworth.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:39 AM   #247
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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She has absolutely no peepee
Has this been confirmed?

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Old 03-11-2019, 11:46 AM   #248
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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Originally Posted by Skellig Michael View Post
Finally watched Wednesday's episode so this is my grunch:



Stupid move for David and Rick to not pull the trigger on either Wardog/Wentworth and take out their own ally Chris instead.



The way I see their tribe Wardog/Wentworth/Lauren is a trio and David/Chris/Rick were another and Wendy is a loner.



It's especially bad for David because now he burned Wendy, and her, Wardog, and Rick still know he was gunning for Wentworth.
I thought the same thing. My first thought was, I hope David doesn't lose Wendy. Although its certainly possible David was feeling out tribal on which way to vote, my guess is he knew before he wasn't voting Wentworth, thus he should have updated Wendy. Her reaction didnt look good.
I also enjoyed how spot on David's read was about not telling Wardog.

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Old 03-11-2019, 11:49 AM   #249
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

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and youíre the one who said Iím going off the rails by saying it was in jest, but now youíre agreeing the tone was lighthearted but saying that doesnít matter
Here's where we differ. You think it was in jest and that she wasn't serious about letting the chickens go. I think the conversation was lighthearted but that she was actually serious about doing it. My evidence - she did steal the flint and the reaction of all the other tribe mates to her about the chickens. They live with her and we only see a small snippet, I'll trust their judgement.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:40 PM   #250
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Re: Survivor S38: Edge of Extinction Main Thread

Last week's vote indeed makes for a great post-discussion, hand history-style. Since we don't know what happens going forward, we can't be accused of being results oriented, but there's an option that I'm surprised hasn't been explored more than it has, and I'd be interested in others' thoughts on the relative merits of it. First, reviewing the "action" leading up to the vote, at least as much as the producers showed us...

1) Rick/David target Wentworth, and approach Chris about it, instructing him NOT to discuss with War Dog.
2) Chris discusses this plan with War Dog.
3) War Dog shares this with Wentworth, and the two of them and Lauren decide to target Chris.
4) War Dog (migod, I hate that name!) shares this plan with Rick.
5) Rick/David flip, voting out Chris because (he's not trustworthy? retains perception of allegience with War Dog/Wentworth? they decide he's a bigger threat than Wentworth? some other reason?)

Most (not all, I acknowledge) of the post-vote discussion seems to have focused on whether the correct Rick/David decision was to vote out Wentworth or Chris. But what about voting out War Dog? They could have easily salvaged Chris' loyalty by going to him and saying "War Dog came to us, saying you had shared our plan to vote out Wentworth. War Dog and Wentworth are now plotting to vote you out. Let's target War Dog." Granted, getting Wendy to vote for someone other than Wentworth MIGHT have been a challenge, but even in that instance, the vote goes 3-3-1, and in the revote, Wendy likely votes out War Dog.

Thoughts?
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