!!

This is what makes Survivor great. The skills needed to get to Final Tribal Council are not necessarily the same skills needed to win at FTC (e.g. Russell).

Soncy,

That's an awesome post. I'll never get you confused with Clovis ever again. Not sure why I ever did in the first place. The importance for the producers is that they get people to care, in one way or the other. And in that sense, Russell was the best contestant in Survivor history. He's polarizing, you either love him or hate him. Very few people are indifferent to how Russell does. And indifference is a disaster.

Also, the stuff on All-Star seasons is a point well-taken. I get it, I guess. My dad's the same way when he watches, loves allstar seasons because he doesn't have to take time to learn about a new cast. But I, like you, thoroughly enjoy getting to know a new cast of characters. Perhaps this was one of the driving factors that made FvF so popular, it appealed to both sects (Though I was disappointed to only have a half cast of new players, and the other side probably hated the fans tribe)


Kos,

It's not that I don't like the players who are edited into masterminds. I'm a Russell fan. I'm a Heidik fan. But back to back seasons of Russell dominating the airtime has really changed the way a lot of people view the show. New watchers who enjoyed watching Russell probably didn't tune in past episode 3 of this season. There's this massive divide between the casual fans, and fans such as yourself. Unfortunately, thus far, this season is appealing to neither of those groups.

It's a shame because I feel like they're trying to bridge that gap this season, and it's just not working. There have been a few strategy-packed episodes, especially the last two. All the vote-splitting and the reasoning behind it, and Marty's plays with the idol... This isn't a season where we're seeing lots of camp life or anything.


I have to run, will finish my thoughts later. Nucleon, you're an idiot, you don't get my points at all. That whole "you're complaining about others complaining" bit probably sounded good when you thought of it, but it's totally irrelevant to the discussion. You're trying, though, that's nice.

Are you kidding with your comment about not understanding why voting out kelly B over marty was a terrible play?

Marty is one of the only good players who also had an idol! Kelly was powerless and easy to remove at any point in the game. I would guess Marty had something like 5x the odds of winning the game over Kelly B.

What power did Marty have? The idol? Describe to me a scenario in which the idol would come back to bite that Sash/Brenda alliance in the ass.

Do you still think it was a terrible play after Sash got Marty to hand over the idol? Because this "terrible play" seemed to work out pretty decently. Marty is stuck, and Sash and Brenda are forcing him to become a loyal minion.

The thing is, Marty has received a bunch of strategy confessionals and has shown the TV viewers to be a "good player" (A phrase which I'll place in "" every time I use it), while Kelly received none. So you, the manipulated viewer, believes that it's important to vote him out, and Kelly is "not a strategic threat and easy to remove at any point".

I do think that the rush to vote out Kelly B was a bit unnecessary. No one wanted to go up against her at FTC, but that doesn't mean you need to vote her out at 14. The way I see it, she's actually pretty perfect to have in the mix post-merge, because it'll never be difficult to rally up support to vote her out.

Do you think Brenda and Sash could have ever gotten any sort of loyalty out of KB after they told her she was in on a plan to vote out Marty or Jane, but it turned out she was the target if the idol got played?

This much-maligned egregious mistake that these "terrible players" made has worked out perfectly. It was easy to spin the story to Marty that he was never the target, that they only wanted to flush the idol.

But I guess you're right. Marty is a "good player". You've gotta vote him out when you get the chance.

+1. This is why this is the best place I've found for talking about Survivor. Sucks has some good posters, but they're lost in the white noise that makes up >90% of posts there.

Kelly B. was not a strategic threat. If she'd had an ounce of common sense she would have aligned with Marty and Jill, but she didn't. Remember that when she decided to target Brenda in Week 2, she completely ****ed it up, telling Shannon about the plan when Brenda's whipping boy Chase was sitting right there. Put yourself in Brenda's position: at the swap, Jane comes to you and tells you that Marty was HBIC back at Espada and has an idol. Given the opportunity, are you going to eliminate someone who has only one ally - Alina - in the entire game, or are you going to eliminate a proven leader of the opposition who holds an idol? Now, I've come to realise it's not actually that bad for Sash if he feels he can earn Marty's trust, but for Brenda it was tremendously stupid. By keeping Marty, you alienate Jane and keep a big threat in the game.

You can't imagine a situation where the idol hurts Brenda/Sash? How about Fabio flipping, as they knew he almost did on the KB boot? They're essentially forced to split the votes (since if Marty/Jill guess right and use the idol Brenda goes), so if Fabio flips and Jill uses the idol, Brenda goes home. Or what about if La Flor win the next few ICs and Marty makes it to the merge with an idol? Now, they have to use a risky split-vote strategy yet again if they want to be certain of staying in the game. You can certainly argue that Marty's abrasive personality makes it less likely for him to be able to piece together a coalition of the outsiders, but the threat of an idol outweighs the higher chance of the formation of an alliance that would be in the minority anyway.

It's pointless to call everyone "manipulated viewer"s. Do you apply that label to yourself? Are you one of those people who think ditzy morons like Danni or Natalie are OMG SECRET UTR MASTERMINDS who controlled the main players in their seasons? You can criticise any claim that anybody makes about Survivor by making unfalsifiable claims about the editing. Ultimately, all we can do is use the evidence we have available and make educated guesses about what we don't know.

We're all manipulated viewers. All we see is what the editors decide to show us. But making these factual statements like "Marty is a good player" and "Kelly B is not a strategic threat" is not something you'll ever see me do.

And I also don't totally buy into stuff like "Fabio almost flipped!" I'll go back and watch the episode today, but I'm willing to bet that the Fabio confessional which makes you think that is just a bunch of Fabio statements spliced together to make it sound like he would consider flipping. You might not realize that the editors also do stuff like that. But with all the footage they have, the editors can make pretty much any castaway say anything they want.

Ouch. {slinking off to lick wounds and may hold a grudge}

There's other stuff that we can't know due to editing as well. Did Kelly B. know at that point that Chase and Brenda had a good relationship together? A lot of you guys assume that people on the island have access to the same information we at home do, but the control of information is the most important facet to Survivor.

not getting rid of marty was entirely braindead for the reasons stated above, and can't be justified just because they ended up getting the idol from him 3 days later.

Please provide an example that supports Marty being a "good player".

It seems that he should be good, but to me it looks like all evidence is pointing towards not so much*. I think early on people assigned him atributes he just doesn't have.




*He could very well be the best of this bunch. But that's not saying much.

At this point Sash is the best player, definitely better than Brenda (the only other competitor for that title imo)

Judgement on Marty will have to wait until post-merge. If he can infiltrate or destroy the LaFlor superalliance he might redeem himself.

Why do you feel that Sash is better than Brenda?

If Marty can infiltrate or destroy the LaFlor alliance, he will need considerable help in the form of someone of influence who needs to allign with and 'work with him'/'use him'. He needs someone with common goals who can pull in others. And if he gets with a person like that, wouldn't that person be getting most of the credit for destroying the LaFlor alliance?

From what we've seen, Sash has been an equal participant in the decision making, yet no-one has even entertained the thought of writing his name down. He was the original creator of the minority alliance and has good relations with everyone in the game, including people who are violently hostile towards Brenda. He managed to inspire enough trust in Marty that he was handed an idol even as he targeted Marty and his alliance. The Sash/Brenda pair reminds me a lot of Rafe/Stephenie right now.

I think the easiest way for Marty to tackle the problem of the superalliance is to try and get that alliance to turn on one of their own ala Erik in Samoa. If, for instance, he managed to get Sash to distrust Chase (or vice versa) to the point where Chase was booted over him, he would definitely deserve credit.

well I don't think Shannon liked Sash too much

Good thing Shannon still has a lot of influence on La Flor.

I am a idiot? lol I just read you post a paragraph complaing about people who are complaining about how stupid these contestants are, while being hypocritical and doing the same exact thing that you don't like other people doing. If you are going to post that then you shouldn't come in with a post right after talking about how Russell killed Survivor for you. It just doesn't make any sense to your entire argument.

And as for Brenda, and Sash being idiots for voting out Kelly B. over Marty there has been plenty of people who have discussed why this was a bad move. And a few have posted since.

But the reason why it was a terrible move is because you leave someone who is harder to beat in physical challenges, AND HE HAS A IDOL! Instead of flushing out the idol, and getting rid of a threat, you take out a non threat. What is a actual realistic argument to actually keep Marty over Kelly?

That he is actually going to give you his idol? What is the actual percent that was going to happen? lol The only reason why it happened is because the yellow team is full of idiot players.

He could use it to flip people over to his side, or to stay a extra few weeks.

Which is why everyone is calling this season full of idiotic gamers this season. A guy gives up his idol? lol

But Marty also had a idol, and wasn't easy to beat in physical competitions. Would you rather compete against Dan, or Kelly? Or Marty, and Yve's?

[quote]I do think that the rush to vote out Kelly B was a bit unnecessary. No one wanted to go up against her at FTC, but that doesn't mean you need to vote her out at 14. The way I see it, she's actually pretty perfect to have in the mix post-merge, because it'll never be difficult to rally up support to vote her out.[/QUOT]

See what we mean? You answered your above question there. She is a perfect contestant to take post merge.

^^^^^ worst post ITT

How? Because I disagree with your opinion? If you want to debate this topic while backing up your arguments that is fine, and we can continue.

I like your arguments for Sash. If Sash and Brenda don't have each other, who is in a better position? I think I like Sash's position in the game a little better (or did before last TC), but I think Brenda brings more to the table in the alliance than he does. I'll be interested in seeing how things play out between them because I'm on the fence on who I think is the better player.

I'm not sure how much trust Sash inspired in Marty. I think Marty was pretty desperate which was probably the driving factor in his decision to give up his idol. Figured what did he have to lose. Just a guess.

Also, I'm guessing Sash should distrust Chase and should see Chase as a threat, so...again might not do back flips over Marty getting Sash to do something that is probably in his own best interests. If Marty could get somebody like Naonka or Invisible Kelly voted out, I'd be impressed.

I've already said my piece on the Marty or Kelly thing. You're not really very good at reading comprehension, so I'm not gonna bother getting into more detail about it. But I will go into more detail on a couple of things.

Why is that post of yours terrible/Why are you such an idiot? You're making all of these assumptions, that you assume to be 100% infallibly correct, and calling all the castaways idiots because of those assumptions. Which is LOL in itself, but when you add in the fact that you fall for all kinds of editing tricks, your arguments get weaker and weaker.

Marty > Kelly B in challenges? I'm not so sure that's the truth. But you're throwing it around like it's gospel. Maybe you don't realize that Kelly is a triathlete?

Huge mistake for Marty to give away his idol? Maybe. Probably. But not 100% necessarily. Looking at things from Marty's perspective from before the last TC... No matter what, either he or Jill was going home, and he was going to be sans HII. Using the idol as a bartering tool to curry some favor from those in control isn't exactly the worst usage of the idol imaginable.

And as for the stuff I was talking about before with HvV cast v this cast. You obviously didn't understand me. At all. Just forget about it. I'm already wasting far too much time with this crap.

Actually I am quite good at it! Lately you have been posting contradicting statements. You post that there is NO GOOD REASON WHY TO KEEP KELLY over Marty argument. And then post that Kelly would be the PERFECT castmate to take post merge. The posts do not add up.

I fall for what? That Marty didn't play the idol? That the cast got rid of the weakest player who was more of a benfit to get to the end? That Marty risked going out early only to GIVE AWAY HIS IDOL the FOLLOWING WEEK!?!? lol

That's not being a idiot, that is looking at what REALLY HAPPENEND in the GAME!!! You are doing the very same exact things you are saying other people are doing by making yourself sound like your statements are 100% correct, and anyone who disagrees with you is a idiot, even though you post agreeing with the people later on that you tried to make arguments against. And then further backtrack once again.

Well it is the truth when you look at endurance competitions, running, and swimming. Do you think Survivor is footing the big bills for brand new prostetics, or replacements?

It is a mistake when you give your idol to a opponent. Why not atleast use it and get it out for the option to try and find it again? Or how about giving it to a person like Fabio to build trust upon?

That would make a three to three tie with trying to swing Kelly in. Giving the idol away could have just as easily sent him home, then it did to keep him there. You say Todd was a lucky winner. Well Marty has all types of luck in the form of being on a tribe mostly full of idiots.

It wasn't difficult at all to understand that type of comment. You are complaining about something that doesn't even make sense! Oh no Russell killed the game of Survivor!!! All these people who watched it for editing purposes have now switched to startegic players!!!

Do you actually think that all the people who watch this show might have actually followed it for its stragetic gameplay? A competition gameshow which uses the slogan "Outwit, Outplay, Outlast"? Not "Out dumb, Out eat, Out lose"

ok man, we disagree on a bunch of stuff. I'm not going to reply anymore, because it's a total waste of my time. You're missing a lot of my points, and making a bunch of fallacious arguments while only trying to catch me making contradictory statements.

Basically, I don't like to play armchair Survivor, for a ton of different reasons. The whole "WHO'S THE BEST PLAYER???" thing is mind-numbingly stupid.

I am not missing many, I just don't think you understand what I am saying to you, nor have I provided fallacious arguments anymore then you have. You don't give enough information in your arguments so it is hard to figure out what is fallacious, and what is not. If it is about you making contradictory statements that is not fallacious but can be seen through viewing your posts.

But that is exactly what everyone is doing in this thread, including yourself.