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Old 10-04-2010, 05:10 PM   #1226
Chilltown
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Originally Posted by SavageTilt View Post
Can you imagine Stephen writing a love letter to Russell and enclosing a HII?
He clearly just randomly lost his mind.

But he ran the show when him and Stephen played. Stephen could have done something stupid if given another chance too, dude just hasn't done enough to warrant anything other than minor praise which he's gotten.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:30 PM   #1227
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I don't think many people around these parts would disagree. Stephen doesn't get enough credit from the general viewing public, but he's awesome.
Yeah, Stephen is another one that utilized my non-strategy (and I really liked his game). Obv, he struggled with the allign with someone you can beat part...but the rest. And in his defense, I thought he still had a shot to beat JT going into FTC. I underestimated both JT's uncanny power to cause people to want him to win, and his ability to perform ok at FTC.

The loyal part is actually pretty key. Especially if your partner is as likely or more likely to win challenges coming down the wire. Because when he/she wins, you are at risk. And at the end, he/she has to be loyal enough or malleable enough that you can convince him/her to take you to the FTC.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:41 PM   #1228
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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He wanted to boot James, but Amanda insisted that they keep him longer. I'm not positive, but I believe she threatened to tell James if Todd didn't change his plan. I know this wasn't the edit, but this is what Todd claimed in all interviews afterwards.



I never claimed Shane was a better player, and even later admitted he was MUCH worse after watching more episodes. Only that Shane is better TV, and to me Shane is as much better TV as Russell is a better player, which is to say, a lot. I think my opinion is likely in the majority among Survivor fans outside of this thread.



I totally agree about Stephen. Anyone else here agree that Erinn/Stephen/JT was the best final 3 of all time? Certainly if you discount all-star seasons, but I think this final 3 may well have been stronger than HvV or FvF, the only other 2 contenders in my mind.
My everywoman has watched every season of Survivor. I'll ask her if she remembers Shane. (She won't.) She will never forget Russell Hantz. And I don't think she would have even if she hadn't been blasted with him in back to back seasons. (She doesn't like either guy FWIW.)

For my part, when you people were talking about Shane last season, I had to go look him up. When I saw his picture, I was like, oh yeah...he was funny.

Also, we do realize in all of our 'so and so' is best for TV talk that we are grossly biased by our own preferences, correct? Because my everywoman loves Colby, Rupert, Ethan Zohn, etc. She was so glad that Natalie beat Russell. And even preferred that Sandra win last season (she doesn't like Parvarti either). As much as I disagree with her taste, I believe she is a better representation of the average viewer than I am.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:42 PM   #1229
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Can you imagine Stephen writing a love letter to Russell and enclosing a HII? Would he have made almost everyone in his tribe distrust him going into the merge if he had been on HvV? It's very easy to say 'Oh, JT won, so he was better' (since I can't think of any other reason to claim that JT was better), but we've seen that JT is liable to make blunders when he can't cruise to the finals (while being loved by everyone to the point that they never tried to vote him out is to JT's credit, it does mean that his strategic game didn't have to be as strong); there were multiple opportunities for Timbira (or Stephen+Erinn+some number of others) to regroup to take down JT, but they irrationally refused to do so.
I actually thought JT played an amazing game in HvV. Had his tribe gotten to the merge with numbers he was a favorite to win, and his move with the HII was only bad b/c Russell was an unknown placed on a tribe called "villains." His logic was sound in the play other than that.

I think JT and Stephen are pretty close strategically, and JT's challenge dominance and jury eloquence puts him slightly ahead of Stephen. Both are top 10 all time for me, though.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:20 PM   #1230
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

russel is amazing TV. hes easily been the most enjoyable survivor for me to watch. id argue if he was just a likable person he woulda went back to back. i dont think there is too much fault in his strategy. just think he needs to shower more and be nicer.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:48 PM   #1231
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Stephen wasn't better than JT
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:44 PM   #1232
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I actually thought JT played an amazing game in HvV. Had his tribe gotten to the merge with numbers he was a favorite to win, and his move with the HII was only bad b/c Russell was an unknown placed on a tribe called "villains." His logic was sound in the play other than that.

I think JT and Stephen are pretty close strategically, and JT's challenge dominance and jury eloquence puts him slightly ahead of Stephen. Both are top 10 all time for me, though.
Overlooking that one factor isn't something that can be discounted. It's foolish to assume that someone who is, by definition, one of the most notorious villains in the game's history is going to be your BFF forever because you gave him an idol. The Heroes can gain the majority anyway if they use the idol at F10; all they need to do is correctly predict who the Villains are targetting. If Russell survives, JT can talk to him and try to ascertain whether he'd be willing to flip or not (rather than guessing); if Russell goes, JT can identify the outsider on BWB Part 2 and use the idol to intimidate them into flipping (ala Yul with Jonathan or - ironically - Russell with Candice). JT retaining the idol gives him more and better options as the merge approaches.

His other big blunder imo was voting out Tom instead of James, which was especially bizarre given that he voted out James two episodes later for the same reasons that would have justified booting him then instead. The swing vote - Candice - would have been on board with booting James, and all JT accomplished by booting Tom was throwing away a solid alliance with a physically strong player (who would have drawn attention away from JT post-merge, while keeping the Heroes tribe at a good level of physical strength for the remaining pre-merge challenges) while making himself distrusted. It's hard to evaluate the decisions that he and Stephen made together in Tocantins since they worked as a unit, but if Stephen's testimony is to be believed there are definitely things that JT wanted to do that were questionable (e.g. JT reportedly wanted Taj gone at the F4, which was silly since they could tell at that point that there was a F2, and Erinn was better in challenges and definitely taking Stephen if she won); ultimately, I think you have to ask yourself which of them would function best outside of their symbiotic relationship, and to me the clear answer is Stephen. I think Stephen's poor jury performance can be traced to the fact that he had essentially given up, knowing that he was going to lose; against Erinn, I believe he would have been much more eloquent. Amanda has shown us (twice, as if we needed a reminder) that it's much harder to make a case for yourself when up the person who's been your closest partner throughout the game.

Who are the rest of your top 10? I read the FB note you linked to in the HvV thread (read all ~100 pages of the thread because I have no life ldo), but IIRC you had Todd a bit lower then, so I imagine it's (no particular order beyond the first two) Parv+Sandra, JT, Stephen, Todd, ?
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:36 PM   #1233
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Overlooking that one factor isn't something that can be discounted. It's foolish to assume that someone who is, by definition, one of the most notorious villains in the game's history is going to be your BFF forever because you gave him an idol. The Heroes can gain the majority anyway if they use the idol at F10; all they need to do is correctly predict who the Villains are targetting. If Russell survives, JT can talk to him and try to ascertain whether he'd be willing to flip or not (rather than guessing); if Russell goes, JT can identify the outsider on BWB Part 2 and use the idol to intimidate them into flipping (ala Yul with Jonathan or - ironically - Russell with Candice). JT retaining the idol gives him more and better options as the merge approaches.

His other big blunder imo was voting out Tom instead of James, which was especially bizarre given that he voted out James two episodes later for the same reasons that would have justified booting him then instead. The swing vote - Candice - would have been on board with booting James, and all JT accomplished by booting Tom was throwing away a solid alliance with a physically strong player (who would have drawn attention away from JT post-merge, while keeping the Heroes tribe at a good level of physical strength for the remaining pre-merge challenges) while making himself distrusted. It's hard to evaluate the decisions that he and Stephen made together in Tocantins since they worked as a unit, but if Stephen's testimony is to be believed there are definitely things that JT wanted to do that were questionable (e.g. JT reportedly wanted Taj gone at the F4, which was silly since they could tell at that point that there was a F2, and Erinn was better in challenges and definitely taking Stephen if she won); ultimately, I think you have to ask yourself which of them would function best outside of their symbiotic relationship, and to me the clear answer is Stephen. I think Stephen's poor jury performance can be traced to the fact that he had essentially given up, knowing that he was going to lose; against Erinn, I believe he would have been much more eloquent. Amanda has shown us (twice, as if we needed a reminder) that it's much harder to make a case for yourself when up the person who's been your closest partner throughout the game.

Who are the rest of your top 10? I read the FB note you linked to in the HvV thread (read all ~100 pages of the thread because I have no life ldo), but IIRC you had Todd a bit lower then, so I imagine it's (no particular order beyond the first two) Parv+Sandra, JT, Stephen, Todd, ?
There's no question JT screwed up in giving the idol to Russell, I'm just saying there's no way it was one of the dumbest moves in the history of the game, and that ignoring tribe names, his logic was sound. As for James, I think JT (correctly) assumed that going with James' alliance was a better setup for him post merge. Who would you rather battle in a final 3, James and Amanda, or Tom and Colby?

My top 10 as of the note from 1st to 10th was:

Parvati
Sandra
Yul
Todd
Tom
Yau-Man
Stephen
Hatch
Cesternino
Cirie

I had JT in 11th and Mariano in 12th.

If I re-wrote it today I might move Todd above Yul and Cirie above Cesternino. HvV was more fresh in my mind then, so if I said something contradictory to this list recently, you can ignore it. Tocantins is next on my list to rewatch.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:41 PM   #1234
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I actually thought JT played an amazing game in HvV
you mean this guy?



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Old 10-04-2010, 08:54 PM   #1235
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

I can't wait to see this movie! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJP01UR1DSY
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:21 PM   #1236
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

grunch: missed first 3 episodes, watching them tonight, but im getting the urge to watch amputee porn, dear god shes so hot
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:44 PM   #1237
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

LOL still grunching but lol at Sash's Affirmative Action of survivor
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:49 PM   #1238
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

lol at holly....WORST OF ALL TIME?
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:03 PM   #1239
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Ok, I've given into peer pressure and I'm rewatching Exile Island. The old ladies have to vote someone off and a very large Cirie is saying to the most fit looking member of her tribe: I know I can't beat Tina in any challenges, so she has to go because I'm trying to win a million dollars here.

How does this work? This is probably the most outlandish example of this very routine Survivor occurrence, and I just can't figure out how it ever works. Usually, it's someone getting an althletic male to target another athletic male. As if they are enemies when they should be banding together before the weak pick them off one by one. But look at this situation. They are divided up into four tribes who have to compete for immunity against each other. One of the tribes has a fat lady who is afraid of leaves saying they need to get rid of another member of their group because she is better in challenges. How can this possibly work? Shouldn't her angle at this point in the game be something more like. We will probably merge very quickly and you know you can trust me and I know I can trust you, while Tina is playing lone wolf out there. Instead: She's good at challenges, she found the water, she started our fire, she caught a fish...let's get rid of her. How does this work?
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:16 PM   #1240
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

wait nevermind, shannon worst of all time
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:33 PM   #1241
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Terry is an unbelievable stud. I love him. Crazy Courtney and Coach would be a precious combo.

I love Cirie's high voice: "If Shane wants to quit, let him quit."
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:50 PM   #1242
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

So far, Shane has been whiney, and wimpy (trying to quit), and playing a Russellish social game. Irritating members of his alliance while telling the weaker players to their face that they are not in his alliance and they will be going home 1 and 2.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:56 PM   #1243
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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So far, Shane has been whiney, and wimpy (trying to quit), and playing a Russellish social game. Irritating members of his alliance while telling the weaker players to their face that they are not in his alliance and they will be going home 1 and 2.
Yeah that episode was his lowest point for sure. He picks up from here.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:25 PM   #1244
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Ok, I've given into peer pressure and I'm rewatching Exile Island. The old ladies have to vote someone off and a very large Cirie is saying to the most fit looking member of her tribe: I know I can't beat Tina in any challenges, so she has to go because I'm trying to win a million dollars here.

How does this work? This is probably the most outlandish example of this very routine Survivor occurrence, and I just can't figure out how it ever works. Usually, it's someone getting an althletic male to target another athletic male. As if they are enemies when they should be banding together before the weak pick them off one by one. But look at this situation. They are divided up into four tribes who have to compete for immunity against each other. One of the tribes has a fat lady who is afraid of leaves saying they need to get rid of another member of their group because she is better in challenges. How can this possibly work? Shouldn't her angle at this point in the game be something more like. We will probably merge very quickly and you know you can trust me and I know I can trust you, while Tina is playing lone wolf out there. Instead: She's good at challenges, she found the water, she started our fire, she caught a fish...let's get rid of her. How does this work?
I haven't watched Exile in awhile, but IIRC, the other two women (not Cirie or Tina) were together-ish, or they were at least the closest two-person bond in that tribe. Because of that, Cirie couldn't target anyone else other than Tina.

Still, Cirie tricking those two women into booting Tina over her for no real reason at all (other than "I like Cirie as a person!") was pretty effing awesome. She's such a ridiculous social mastermind.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:50 PM   #1245
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I haven't watched Exile in awhile, but IIRC, the other two women (not Cirie or Tina) were together-ish, or they were at least the closest two-person bond in that tribe. Because of that, Cirie couldn't target anyone else other than Tina.

Still, Cirie tricking those two women into booting Tina over her for no real reason at all (other than "I like Cirie as a person!") was pretty effing awesome. She's such a ridiculous social mastermind.
Don't get me wrong. I love Cirie. But I believe the moral of the story was that your average Survivor contestant is borderline mentally handicapped rather than Cirie is a social mastermind. The fat lady telling the most fit lady that she is targeting someone else pretty much because she is fit should be a bad argument was kind of the point I was making. But that exact argument works all the time. I just don't get it.

Someone who is not ******ed: Cletus is a huge threat. He is so good at these challenges. We have to get rid of him.

Guy who is one rung below Cletus in athleticism and for sure the next to be targeted after Cletus is gone: Yeah, yeah, {drool}. Let's vote out Cletus. Good idea.
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Old 10-05-2010, 01:02 AM   #1246
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Don't get me wrong. I love Cirie. But I believe the moral of the story was that your average Survivor contestant is borderline mentally handicapped rather than Cirie is a social mastermind. The fat lady telling the most fit lady that she is targeting someone else pretty much because she is fit should be a bad argument was kind of the point I was making. But that exact argument works all the time. I just don't get it.

Someone who is not ******ed: Cletus is a huge threat. He is so good at these challenges. We have to get rid of him.

Guy who is one rung below Cletus in athleticism and for sure the next to be targeted after Cletus is gone: Yeah, yeah, {drool}. Let's vote out Cletus. Good idea.
My guess is her argument was that she was unlikable around camp. Tina made the classic mistake of not adapting to her tribe. You can't do the most work and expect the others to match you. You have to go with the group.
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Old 10-05-2010, 01:30 AM   #1247
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Don't get me wrong. I love Cirie. But I believe the moral of the story was that your average Survivor contestant is borderline mentally handicapped rather than Cirie is a social mastermind. The fat lady telling the most fit lady that she is targeting someone else pretty much because she is fit should be a bad argument was kind of the point I was making. But that exact argument works all the time. I just don't get it.

Someone who is not ******ed: Cletus is a huge threat. He is so good at these challenges. We have to get rid of him.

Guy who is one rung below Cletus in athleticism and for sure the next to be targeted after Cletus is gone: Yeah, yeah, {drool}. Let's vote out Cletus. Good idea.
Lol, that is definitely how it goes. Zero level thinkers.

That's why, if I was out there in Nicaragua right now, I'd never vote out NaOnka unless everyone else was inevitable bandwagoning. She is annoying as ****, but will never win a final tribal.
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Old 10-05-2010, 02:38 AM   #1248
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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My guess is her argument was that she was unlikable around camp. Tina made the classic mistake of not adapting to her tribe. You can't do the most work and expect the others to match you. You have to go with the group.
Her argument seemed to be that Tina was better at everything involving surviving under the conditions, but that she is 'getting on our nerves and we can get along without her'. I'm not sure I'd be jumping to comply with those particular arguments. I like my proposed argument better. Hey, I've got your back, you should keep me around. Plus, if we combine to two tribes quickly, I'm a sitting duck on getting voted off ahead of you guys. Those arguments make sense instead of requiring leaps of illogic. However, she was in the tribe of older women, so maybe leaps of illogic were to be expected? (FWIW, I'd be in the tribe of older women too.)

I find it interesting that the tribe who was pretty together, and had the most dominant individual in the challenges, and tried to stick to the vote off the weakest link theory, got mangled by the dsyfunctional tribe.

Except for that very first vote, Cirie didn't have to exert herself very much pre merge. She mostly just laid low and and let everyone else shoot themselves in the foot.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:08 AM   #1249
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

MMMMMMmmmmmmmm, Terry.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:33 AM   #1250
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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MMMMMMmmmmmmmm, Terry.
Aras is so much hotter than Terry, you are crazy.
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