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Old 12-16-2010, 03:59 PM   #4176
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Originally Posted by vyk07 View Post
OMG, Ponderosa does not disappoint this week

I can't stop looking at benry's hips.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:08 PM   #4177
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Originally Posted by kartinken View Post
I said for the most part. Jimmy Johnson and Chase didn't play stellar games, but you are being way too hard on Chase. He made some bad plays he made some plays based on emotion, but overall he's done the right things to get him where he is.
I truly believe he is a very nice guy in RL--I can't not like him as a person even though I don't have a lot of respect for his gameplay. People in the game like him, he's made alliances with the people who have the numbers the entire game, I don't think he has ever been targeted despite looking like the epitome of a physical threat--possibly because everyone knows that no one respects his play??? so they don't fear him in the endgame. Even so, I've seen a lot worse players than Chase over the years.

My power rankings look like this: 1. Holly 2. Sash 3. Fabio 4. Chase 5. Dan. I'd have Fabio and Sash switched if I put them in the order I'm rooting for.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:12 PM   #4178
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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By "fairly regularly", I assume you mean "After every single episode, every season"
I very often find myself drastically over or under stating something for amusement purposes. Of course, this tendency causes some confusion sometimes and I often end up only amusing myself.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:18 PM   #4179
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Originally Posted by kartinken View Post
I'm honestly not sure why people watch Survivor at all if you consider this a bad season. Sure the pre-merge wasn't great, but it never is.

I think this season was fantastic. Way higher than normal number of thinking players, lots of drama, lots of hilarity, lots of different characters from different walks of life. Good moves, bad moves, unpredictability.

I mean seriously, not every season can be HvV, but this season was pretty solid as a follow up to that.
I already answered why I watched it even though it's a bad season. And I knew that you would still say this as if I didn't. I will say this, that I agree with you, the season itself has been HIGHLY entertaining. Lots of interesting characters and good drama. I totally agree.

But I just plain disagree about the number of thinking players, Kart. And I know that it's opinion, so I respect yours, but I just think that we have different criteria for what is a thinking player. And because I respect the strategy part of the game more than anything, it was really tough for me to have someone to root for, and therefore have a vested interest in how the season turns out.

This season was rife with players who chose to take a passive, utr approach to the game, to the point that even when they knew their head was on the chopping block or they were on the outside looking in, they did little to nothing to try to change their fate.

I have nothing against the utr approach and have great respect for some of the better players of past who knew how to play it well. But it requires an ability to have your finger on the pulse of others in the tribe so that you know where you stand among it. So many of the players this season just seemed to have blinders on and go about each day. Late gamewise, Jane, Fabio, Dan, Benry, etc. are like lambs to the slaughter, and had Holly not stepped it up at F9, the rest of the game would have gone down like that.

As far as the thinking, actively strategic players, it seemed like for every good move they made, they also made a really terrible move. We had our hopes set really high on Marty, but he was so polarizing with bad plays as well. Same goes for Sash and Brenda. I think Holly has been kicking butt, but it's been hard for me to let go of what she did early in the season.

Who are all of these strategic players that you claim are in this season?

In last night's episode when Sash, Chase, and Holly were discussing voting out Jane and Jane approached them asking what the plan was, all three of them should have instantly been saying, "Dan, of course. We stick to the plan." etc. etc. But the fact that all three stood around, riddled with shame, just shows a major lack of understanding that you don't let the person who is going know that they're going. If Jane was anything above a level 0 thinker, it would have put their whole game in jeopardy. And then for Chase to openly say the pecking order at last night's tribal, I mean, geez. He has to be in the running for WOAT strategy wise.

Please, I really am interested to know who you consider good, thinking players from this season and for what reasons.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:46 PM   #4180
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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OMG, Ponderosa does not disappoint this week

Wow, Jane looks like a poorly-aged porn star...
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:51 PM   #4181
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Originally Posted by Double Down View Post
Fabio and Dan are clearly #4 and #5 on the totem pole. Chase openly said so at TC. And even though Jane wanted to get rid of Dan, the more recent events had her furious at her alliance members, so why wouldn't they try to team up with Jane at least for last night? Fabio has now put himself in a position where he has to win 2 more ICs back to back if he wants to get to the finals, he has essentially become the Brett of this season. Unless he chooses to actually try to actively play this game, which he has shown no signs of doing.
Is it that hard to see Chase and Sash turning on Holly like they turned on Jane? People act like this "totem pole" actually exists, and then think that alliances are some sort of sacred bond that can't be broken until everyone else has been "picked off one by one".

I don't know what's going to happen the final few days. I don't know if Dan and Fabio made a mistake or not. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I just don't see why it's such a clear-cut mistake for Dan/Fabio to vote out Jane. For every point you can make saying it was a mistake, there's a counterpoint I can make that would make it not a mistake.

But since Probst did his impression of his mother while asking "why don't you 3 team up", it sounds like it's elementary strategy that Dan/Fabio are idiots for not considering.

But guess what? They very well could have considered it. Jane very well could have tried to scramble before TC and Dan and Fabio could have discussed it. And it could be that they decided the best way forward was to vote out Jane (And omg, they might ACTUALLY be right). Dan and Fabio didn't really have many great options at last night's TC. Whatever they did, it could've been construed as a mistake. It's very possible that they should've put themselves in better positions, but that's neither here nor there.

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re: the editing, I just don't know what to say anymore, boc. You're telling me that I'm a fool for making assumptions based on the footage that they chose to show me. But what choice do I have? What type of assumption am I allowed to make so that you don't come back at me with the same ridiculous argument you've been spewing all season? Maybe Chase is actually a strategic genius and chess grand master and this whole simple country boy persona is an act, maybe Holly actually has a F3 alliance with Dan and Fabio and they just haven't shown it, maybe NaOnka is actually Russell in drag and blackface, etc etc etc etc etc.
I'm just saying don't let this **** hinder your enjoyment of the show so much. The stuff that you perceive to be BIG MISTAKES might not appear so bad if things were edited differently.

I just think you guys spend way too much time worrying about who's "playing the best game", because it's all so influenced by the editors... And in most cases, it's impossible to know whether a play is a "good play" or "bad play".

Do you think that you can discern who the best players are at the WSOP ME by watching ESPN's coverage of it? Of course not, only NVG-reading, kool-aid drinking, 1/2 home game playing, Milwaukee's Best-chugging dumbasses think that. But when it comes down to it, the ESPN WSOP coverage is very, very similar to Survivor on TV. Thousands and thousands of hours of footage are compressed into one hour a week. Things are shown in and out of order. The context of things are totally lost.

And just like we don't know all of the hundreds of variables at play at a poker table when we watch edited coverage, we don't know the hundreds of variables at play during these games of Survivor, either. When you guys criticize the players of Survivor, to me it just sounds like an NVGtard screaming "OMG WHAT A DONKEY HOW DID HE CALL OFF ALL HIS CHIPS WITH JUST QQ IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT OTHER GUY HAD KK AT LEAST", when NVGtard has the luxury of sitting on his couch looking at hole card cameras.


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I'll say it again, in post show interviews over the years, it has been an overwhelmingly common occurrence compared to the contrary that when asked if the contestants felt that they received a fair and accurate edit, they say they have. This is especially interesting considering that they have essentially been given an opportunity on a silver platter to paint themselves in a better light by being asked that question. Please answer my question above. It's not rhetorical. What types of things are assumption worthy and what are not?
Sure, most people besides the villains and invisibles feel like they got fair edits.

Stuff that isn't assumption worthy: Things that you don't see on the screen. For example, it's not fair to say "LOL DAN AND FABIO NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED THE POSSIBILITY OF FORCING A TIE, WHAT IDIOTS". As I brought up before, they may have considered the possibility. They may have even had confessionals telling the cameras why they thought it was a good or bad idea to do something like that.

Stuff that is assumption worthy: What you do see on the screen. However, you have to be careful, because footage is manipulated and context can be lost.


A good example of something that isn't assumption-worthy: The way Dan is perceived as "useless" and "terrible at Survivor". He's useless and terrible at Survivor challenges, but as far as his "gameplay" goes, it's pretty ****ing hard to say. We haven't been shown very much of Dan's gameplay, but the little that he has been shown, he's shown way more Survivor aptitude than lack thereof. But hey, he's the invisible guy who sucks at challenges, so he's a terrible player who sucks.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:56 PM   #4182
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

a bit of a aggressive post boc. we realize that the editors decides what we see. doesnt mean we cant discuss or try to figure out who is playing well. i enjoy the season plenty. but there is not much to talk about at a forum if we cant make assumptions and discuss it.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:06 PM   #4183
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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we realize that the editors decides what we see. doesnt mean we cant discuss or try to figure out who is playing well.
I mean, I get that. But 98% of the posts people make discussing "who's playing well" are "omg xxxxxx is such an idiot for doing yyyyyyyy. Everyone is so terrible at this game".

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there is not much to talk about at a forum if we cant make assumptions and discuss it.
Meh, I think there's plenty of stuff that can be discussed that never gets broached ITT. Overall, I think this thread is a very low-level Survivor discussion.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:08 PM   #4184
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

If I'm Holly, I don't think I'm as ready to jump at voting off Jane because I think I can beat her (rant at me for being an arrogant fool if you must). I'd be really concerned that if I consent to vote off Jane, then Fabio wins the next immunity, I'm the next to go. If I'm Holly, I'm thinking I can make a good case for myself at FTC against ANYONE, and my concern needs to be getting there. So, I don't love keeping Dan just because he might be easy to beat. If the consensus is that he is easy to beat and he has shown he can't win immunity, I don't like having him around if I don't consider MYSELF easy to beat. If the fellas have to choose between me and Dan, it's not a choice. If they have to choose between me and Jane...I still have a shot. Maybe I underrate how much they feared Jane at FTC, but I think Holly should have resisted this move. And I think she could have since Chase didn't want to do it in the first place.

Okay, now tell me how I'm a crazy loon for wanting to vote off Dan. Bring it.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:12 PM   #4185
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Originally Posted by boc4life View Post
I mean, I get that. But 98% of the posts people make discussing "who's playing well" are "omg xxxxxx is such an idiot for doing yyyyyyyy. Everyone is so terrible at this game".

Meh, I think there's plenty of stuff that can be discussed that never gets broached ITT. Overall, I think this thread is a very low-level Survivor discussion.
Regarding the former, just because people say something doesn't make it true. Skim over the crap you think is preposterous.

Regarding the latter, you are as free as anyone else to broach whatever topics you want. Don't hold back these scintillating things we could be discussing.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:14 PM   #4186
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

lol whats high level survivor discussion? guessing who wins based off of edits?
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:16 PM   #4187
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

if im holly i dont really want to disagree there. could easily put herself in a bad position for that vote.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:21 PM   #4188
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lol whats high level survivor discussion? guessing who wins based off of edits?
I shouldn't have dropped that "low level discussion" line. But yeah, I do think that analyzing the editing is a higher level discussion than the Youtube comments-esque stuff that some people contribute ITT.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:25 PM   #4189
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

if youre holly or sash it should be pretty simple, its time to flip. team up with dan and fabio right now because taking sash/holly and chase makes the competition much harder. id say the same for chase but theres just absolutely no way hes smart enough to figure it out.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:27 PM   #4190
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

okay by the edit i guess dan gets third and sash gets second place if he gets to the end with holly or fabio. but if he gets to the end with chase and dan he will win.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:28 PM   #4191
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

but then he has to somehow convince chase to flip on holly and...chase just isnt smart enough.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:30 PM   #4192
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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if youre holly or sash it should be pretty simple, its time to flip. team up with dan and fabio right now because taking sash/holly and chase makes the competition much harder. id say the same for chase but theres just absolutely no way hes smart enough to figure it out.
yeah i feel like sash is (or should be?) a decent-sized favorite to flip in the next episode. but i dont know... the players always seem to have their own ideas about who is going to be a threat at FTC that dont necessarily jive with mine.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:33 PM   #4193
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Stuff that isn't assumption worthy: Things that you don't see on the screen. For example, it's not fair to say "LOL DAN AND FABIO NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED THE POSSIBILITY OF FORCING A TIE, WHAT IDIOTS". As I brought up before, they may have considered the possibility. They may have even had confessionals telling the cameras why they thought it was a good or bad idea to do something like that.

Stuff that is assumption worthy: What you do see on the screen. However, you have to be careful, because footage is manipulated and context can be lost.
Don't you see how you are contradicting yourself? Everything that we have been making assumptions about falls under: What we do see on the screen. Which according to you is assumption worthy. But then, because of the infinitely unquantifiable unknown of what is not shown, one can always say, "well how do you know it really is like that? What if it's really not like that at all, but they chose to not show us that?"

Do you see what I am saying? You claim that what they show us is assumption worthy, but all you do is react against us when we do this. Once again, please give a specific example of something that is assumption worthy. For example:

I feel that it is assumption worthy that

1. Sash, Chase, and Holly are very tight and intend to go to final 3 together. I'm making this assumption based on the many times they've shown us the 3 of them talking about who is to go next, and Chase's open comments last night at tribal.

2. Fabio and Dan have played a very passive strategy. I am basing this on that every point of game play we've seen them involved in has been initiated by someone else. Fabio has also said several comments to the idea of "can't we all just get along," etc.


This is why I feel that if they wanted to further themselves in this game, it was in their best interests to align with Jane. But then you come back with "Well, how do any of us know if maybe it was the right move, because the Chase, Sash, and Holly alliance, just like any alliance, isn't some set in stone thing." You are correct, but what this is going to take is a significant change in style from both Fabio and Dan. Of course, maybe Fabio and Dan have been incredibly active strategically and they haven't chosen to show this.

Do you now see why it is so tiring to have to deal with your argument over and over that nothing is assumption worthy? Seriously, please give examples of something that is and then I'll Boc you with why it isn't.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:36 PM   #4194
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

i think you are wrong double down. i believe sash is trying to get to the end with dan. i think his main target is fabio and then either chase or holly.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:37 PM   #4195
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

holly also. i believe she may want to get to the end with dan. she may view sash or chase as a threat. cant really tell?
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:44 PM   #4196
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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holly also. i believe she may want to get to the end with dan. she may view sash or chase as a threat. cant really tell?
i'll be really interested to see how members of that three person alliance behave in this next episode. im actually really looking forward to it. think there could be a real shakeup as FTC becomes more immediate in a situation where sash, chase and holly could all legitimately view each other as a threat. like, everyone should be dying to take dan (imo), and that might mean taking fabio along as well. i dunno. just looking forward to the episode i guess. i think that if fabio wins immunity, it's almost a lock that that alliance disintegrates, because everyone must see that dan is the one sure person they want to take with them to FTC.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:45 PM   #4197
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

yeah i agree. should be a exciting finale
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:48 PM   #4198
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

I mean at this point Chase is the guy you want to bring right? I don't know whose vote he can get on the jury besides NaOnka, and she said in the Ponderosa video to Jane she told her not to trust him. Flip on Holly beat Fabio in immunity and ship Sash the mil?
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:07 PM   #4199
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Soncy: There is definitely precedent for the boot-the-goat strategy: see Cirie taking out Courtney in EI. I think it would have been fine for the four to stick together and take out Dan at F6, with either Fabio or Sash leaving at F5 depending on who wins immunity. The worry would be Jane winning immunity at F4 or Chase spazzing out and deciding to force a tie (definitely possible imo). As it is, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Sash flip back to Fabio and Dan at F5 and take out Holly, with a view to taking out either Chase or Fabio at F4 depending on who wins immunity.

boc: Feel free to post whatever higher-level thoughts you claim to have, I promise we'll try to wrap our little minds around them.
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:45 PM   #4200
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I mean at this point Chase is the guy you want to bring right?
if any of the remaining players could bring chase and dan their equity probably goes to like 900k. dan's only real argument is "i never pissed any of you off that bad."

edit: well there'll probably be a lot of "i played this game straight up!" noise, but its easy to do that when youre so absurdly physically weak and such a follower that everyone is happy keeping you around.
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