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Old 11-11-2010, 11:59 PM   #2951
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I see what you're saying now. Say you're Benry though. You want to enlist Holly and Kelly. Who do you send on reward? You want Brenda gone from camp, because it's going to be harder to turn people like Kelly while Brenda's there. Yet if you send Brenda on reward, are Holly/Kelly going to be convinced that you're trying to overthrow Brenda (Kelly cried because she didn't get food ffs)? On the other hand, if you trade your spot with Holly/Kelly, any gratitude they might feel towards you is overshadowed by the fact that the players on the other team have the first shot at forming an alliance with them.
Benry and Fabio should definitely send Brenda, but the second spot is tough. I think Purple Kelly is probably the correct choice since she's not smart enough to see the gesture as one of strategy, not compassion. Yes, Holly will realize you're trying to overthrow Brenda, but that's a good thing. Holly should be presented with a deal that improves her position, so you offer her the six-person alliance and a F3 deal with you.

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I'd argue that the people Kos is drawn to are in fact the most capable players, but have been surprisingly poor in social game.
I'm somehow just getting lumped in as a Russell-only fan. I had high hopes for Marty, but he sucked. Most of the other players I've liked have all been very good social players, and most of them were likable as well. I think the cross-up is that most people seem to think social game is the same as being likable, which it's not. I tend to hate the likable players who never make any moves and just float through the game without a care in the world.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:40 AM   #2952
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

kos marty didn't suck. The tribal switch was very unlucky for him. He was dominating and if he wasnt really on the outs he would of crushed the entire game.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:43 AM   #2953
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I like jerks? Not really. I just like "villains," which is usually synonymous with "good, deceitful, smart players." I like people who make strategic decisions as opposed to just floating along. Yes, some of those people are Russell, Fairplay, and Boston Rob, but most of them are likable: Cesternino, Yau-Man, Cirie, Stephen, Chris, Yul, etc.

My problem as a fan is that there's no one who is even playing, which is different than a lot of seasons. In an average season, most players are bad, but they're at least TRYING to occasionally make moves, even if they're dumb ones. There are ten people left, and I struggled to even pick a #3 in my power rankings because I just feel that the bottom eight are all passive, bad players. I hope I'm wrong, but Benry is the only person I can see leading a revolt against Sash and Brenda, and he played about as awful as humanly possible this week, so I think he's probably gone next week.
Yes, you like jerks. Acceptance is the first step. The jerk store called and said you ordered a Coach, a Randy, and a Richard Hatch. Were they lying? I know Coach and Randy are beyond the original scope of my discussion because they were never contenders, but tell me you don't like them and I will retract my statement that you are drawn to jerks. That's what I thought.

And don't misunderstand me. I too like me some Randy and Coach (plus I think Coach is VERY unfairly labled a bad guy). But my Everywoman finds both guys to have little to no redeeming qualities. And it's with your everyday human beings in mind that I make some of my comments to you because you seem to be out of touch with the normal people. (I'm aware I sound elitist and awful...forgive me. I'm just trying to make a point here.) I think my main point is simply that the majority of Survivors are actually everyday human beings and--right or wrong--guys like Marty are going to rub them the wrong way and be percieved as a jerk.

You and Marty say no one else is playing, but I say Brenda and Sash make the count at least two players who were playing BETTER than Marty. And I think Holly is playing very well for Holly. Chase has been attempting to play since picking Brenda over Shannon. I thought he made good decisions after the tribe swap, I just don't know how he overcomes being in an alliance with Sash and Brenda. Seems like he should eventually get chewed up. Naonka is trying to play...she is just crazy. It's nice to have a crazy lady in the mix. Keeps people on their toes.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:52 AM   #2954
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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kos marty didn't suck. The tribal switch was very unlucky for him. He was dominating and if he wasnt really on the outs he would of crushed the entire game.
Some of this, yes. He has to get some votes in the end though. Might Russell himself in the foot on that one.

Marty had game. Marty was unlucky. He needs a little softer touch.

I've said it before, but I like the Todd/Sash/Fishbach type approach to Survivor. It's my favorite.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:52 AM   #2955
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Awesome post Soncy but do you think Sash/Brenda having numbers over Marty is a HUGE reason, if not the only reason they played better?

BTW, I love jerks on the show. Well most of them. Russell 1.0 was much better than 2.0, but that is most likely because he was an underdog in 19.

Just because someone is not a villain doesn't mean they are good at the game. Stephen from 18 is awesome, and idk if he is a villain.

btw the crazy women in the mix is awesome. I almost hope NaOnka wins the game.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:54 AM   #2956
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I tend to hate the likable players who never make any moves and just float through the game without a care in the world.
Sounds like Fabio better get to moving. He sounds like the definition of your hated enemy.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:57 AM   #2957
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Some of this, yes. He has to get some votes in the end though. Might Russell himself in the foot on that one.

Marty had game. Marty was unlucky. He needs a little softer touch.

I've said it before, but I like the Todd/Sash/Fishbach type approach to Survivor. It's my favorite.
I agree. That is the best way to play the game. I have no idea how Stephen didn't get a single vote vs JT. He was the clear master mind. I guess I have a rooting interest with Sash, since he is from Wisconsin and I hope he can make some good moves because this season needs someone that I want to see in future seasons.

Soncy, do you think Brenda is running the game? I think that Sash would love to take Marty to the end, so I think Brenda is calling the shots. Which is really good for Sash toward the end game.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:06 AM   #2958
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Haven't posted much this year.
Ok for some reason this all seems like Surviors "Junior" maybe its cause we got awesome game play the past 2 seasons and were spoiled but I don't like a single person at all. Maybe Fabio maybe Benry (dirt squirel ftw).
Sash and Brenda are the lamest game players like ever? **** em both if either wins. Russ should come back in the final tribal and ***** slap the jury if that goes down.
Marty was the best game player this season and that's not saying a lot at all.
Floating right now btw is perfect for what's going on lots of targets out there. People say he's dumb. No Chase is dumb Fabios just a little goofy but he knows the diary of a mad black woman "hates him" so she needs to go "now" for him to survive. Unless he can drag her to the end right now with him. But this cast is dumb enough to vote for NaO as some "great villan game player".
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:14 AM   #2959
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Cesternino Podcast with Fairplay is up!
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:18 AM   #2960
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

the intro is amazing!
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:21 AM   #2961
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Awesome post Soncy but do you think Sash/Brenda having numbers over Marty is a HUGE reason, if not the only reason they played better?

BTW, I love jerks on the show. Well most of them. Russell 1.0 was much better than 2.0, but that is most likely because he was an underdog in 19.

Just because someone is not a villain doesn't mean they are good at the game. Stephen from 18 is awesome, and idk if he is a villain.

btw the crazy women in the mix is awesome. I almost hope NaOnka wins the game.
Well, Sash and Brenda were a little lucky in the beginning themselves. The numbers swung in their favor when Alina and Kelly B got the bright idea to target Brenda instead of Naonka. But you tell me if you think Brenda and Sash are playing better than Marty when you contrast their secret scenes with his. Brenda has said she thinks it is important to try and remain open to all people (even if you don't like them) because you never know when you might need their vote or their loyalty. Sash has said that he thinks it is important to coddle everyone's egos by making them feel like they are part of the decision process. Marty said he insta-wrote off Jane and Holly because they seemed unstable and not very smart. {shrug}

Sash uses a pretty soft touch. I like it. Marty uses the hard sell and tends to come off like a bully. You know how everyone painted Tyrone as a camp tyrant following the tribe swap? Marty is like a strategy tyrant. Tribe might need water or a roof or whatever, but try being that guy that is bossing everyone around camp. Doesn't go over well. Same can be said for trying to push a certain vote too hard. Add to that that he alienated two people he needed later and maybe he created some of his own bad luck.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:28 AM   #2962
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I agree. That is the best way to play the game. I have no idea how Stephen didn't get a single vote vs JT. He was the clear master mind. I guess I have a rooting interest with Sash, since he is from Wisconsin and I hope he can make some good moves because this season needs someone that I want to see in future seasons.

Soncy, do you think Brenda is running the game? I think that Sash would love to take Marty to the end, so I think Brenda is calling the shots. Which is really good for Sash toward the end game.
I'm not sure. Brenda seemed fairly keen on possibly keeping Marty around in her secret scene, but then they didn't. My gut says that she and Sash are conspiring and reaching decisions together for the time being. I'm wondering if they went with Marty this week because Jane was so in the dumps that they felt they needed to pacify her to keep her under control.

edit: Stephen wasn't great at FTC. I thought JT outplayed him there. Still, I thought that vote was going to be close. It probably wasn't a good sign for Stephen that everyone was falling all overthemselves trying to allign with JT in the game.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:36 AM   #2963
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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I'm not sure. Brenda seemed fairly keen on possibly keeping Marty around in her secret scene, but then they didn't. My gut says that she and Sash are conspiring and reaching decisions together for the time being. I'm wondering if they went with Marty this week because Jane was so in the dumps that they felt they needed to pacify her to keep her under control.

edit: Stephen wasn't great at FTC. I thought JT outplayed him there. Still, I thought that vote was going to be close. It probably wasn't a good sign for Stephen that everyone was falling all overthemselves trying to allign with JT in the game.
"Stephen: Who would you have taken to final 2 and BE HONEST b/c we ALL already know" "Well Debbie, I never made up my mind, I'm honestly not sure." "YES YOU ARE LIAR!"

"Now JT, isn't it true that you are the greatest person to ever live?" "Why yes, Debbie, it is!"
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:40 AM   #2964
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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kos marty didn't suck. The tribal switch was very unlucky for him. He was dominating and if he wasnt really on the outs he would of crushed the entire game.

I disagree. Marty was dominating his OWN tribe, but going into the switch, they were down 9-7. Say hypothetically that they hadn't switched but still merged at 12. The old folks would've had to go 3-1 in immunity challenges just to go into the merge 6-6. Actually, more accurately, considering that they still probably would have had the double boot episode, making it 8-6, the oldies would've had to go 2-0 to knot it 6-6. Not impossible, but considering it didn't seem like Dan was going anywhere, it would've been tough.

Going into the merge down or tied in numbers, Marty would have needed to do the same thing that he should have tried to do during the tribal switch, which was to sniff out those lowest on the young people totem pole. He wasn't able to do that with Fabio or Kelly B, so doubtful he could've done it at the merge. His skills of reading people were just not strong enough. In addition, if either Holly or Jane were left by merge time, they may have easily jumped ship to the young folks, as they have in the actual case.

The disappointing thing about Marty (and Russell, too) is that they show the potential of being great strategists but are incredibly inept at being able to feel out their social surroundings. Marty is clueless as to how he comes across. He's totally unaware that his brashness, his quickness to be so brutally honest (such as when calling out NaOnka and Jane, or earlier on when pointing out that he was the only one playing the game, etc.) and his overstrategizing actually turned him off to a lot of people. Even though he never stabbed anyone in the back or was an outright jerk to anyone, he still came across as a scheming, mistrustful guy. It was enough, in fact, to turn Jane against him, which turned out to be pretty critical. At the swap, he couldn't make it happen with KellyB or Fabio, and post merge he didn't think to reach out to Alina or Benry.

In fact, it should've occurred to him to at least try to patch things up with Jane (and by extension Holly) by pointing out that if they go with the young people that they'll be the first ones out once the rest of the oldies are gone. But it didn't.

I am in the same camp as a lot of people here that Brenda and Sash aren't as likeable as other good players, but the one thing that they're doing VERY well is making everyone feel like they belong and are on the inside. There is no incentive for anyone to flip on them because no one feels like they're at the bottom of the totem pole. Every single person, save Benry or Dan, feels like they're very very close to Sash and Brenda.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:52 AM   #2965
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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kos marty didn't suck. The tribal switch was very unlucky for him. He was dominating and if he wasnt really on the outs he would of crushed the entire game.
He didn't suck, he just didn't really stand out like I thought he would. The switch killed his game, but he didn't have a particularly strong alliance with the old people anyway. I think he'd do fairly well in a normal season, but he's not anywhere near as great as I expected.

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Yes, you like jerks. Acceptance is the first step. The jerk store called and said you ordered a Coach, a Randy, and a Richard Hatch. Were they lying? I know Coach and Randy are beyond the original scope of my discussion because they were never contenders, but tell me you don't like them and I will retract my statement that you are drawn to jerks. That's what I thought.
I like Randy as a person, not as a player. Coach is not a jerk. Who doesn't like Hatch?

Jerks tend to be better TV. That doesn't mean they're good players, though, and good players are the most interesting Survivors to me. I honestly can't think of a good player that I dislike (though I guess Sandra counts since people think she's good).

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Sounds like Fabio better get to moving. He sounds like the definition of your hated enemy.
I like Fabio as a character. He's fun to watch, and he's good TV. He sucks as a player, but like Coach, I can still like a bad player as long as they're interesting.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:56 AM   #2966
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Awesome post Soncy but do you think Sash/Brenda having numbers over Marty is a HUGE reason, if not the only reason they played better?
I guess my response to this is my more concise main point to the tl;dr I just posted. It wasn't luck that they had numbers. They were friendly to everyone on their tribe. They strategized early (Sash approaching Na and Brenda, Brenda teaming with Chase, and KP which we never really saw) but not too hard. The people they brought on board trusted them enough to let them know that Brenda was in trouble in vote 1. And even though KellyB and Fabio may have felt on the outs after that, it wasn't enough for them to try to flip.

Chase wasn't "playing the game well" when deciding his first vote against Shannon. Plain and simple, he liked Brenda more than Shannon. Just like Marty, Shannon never lied, but his personality made him seem like a guy you couldn't trust and/or didn't want to be around. And Brenda played up the flirt card.

Just like us in this thread, some of the "better" players out think themselves, assuming that people around them are playing optimally. But they're doing far from that. The great players (just like poker players) observe what drives the people around them, and appeals to those things. A lot of people in this cast (and most) are looking to have a great adventure, maybe try out a little strategy, but mostly, align/hang out with people they like and hope they go to the end.

Sash and Brenda have managed to surround themselves with level 1 thinkers who are just happy to be along for the ride. They make everyone feel welcome and that they belong. The only bad thing I have to say about their game so far is that it seemed like an unnecessary risk to not vote out Marty the 3 opportunities they had before they did. Although in hindsight it turned out good for Sash. He has an idol, and a good shot at Marty's vote come FTC.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:56 AM   #2967
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Fairplay just said he wouldn't let his kids play with Jane's kids.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:18 AM   #2968
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Marty was screwed at the switch as any player in the power position of the weaker of the 2 tribes would've been at that point. The lower people on his tribe had an incentive to switch, and he was a perceived threat. His demise was a likely result of that.

I am curious to see if Sash/Brenda's decision was correct going forward. I think it was a correct decision for Brenda as Naonka is her ally and flushing the idol/going against Naonka draws the lines in the sand. A final 6 of Brenda, Sash, Chase, Holly, Jane and kelly is better for Brenda than Brenda, Sash, Fabio, Benry, Dan and Marty in terms of both her alliances and immunity potential. In the first final six, she has Sash, Chase, Naonka and Kelly solid. In the other, she only has Sash and a devious Marty. I think this is a strong point for Brenda's solid position in this game.

Re: Sash: I think he has to make a move at 9 to make it to the end, but I think it's too late unless he effectively uses the HII. Brenda will want to get rid of him at some point, and he is smart enough to realize she wants Naonka in the final 3. I think Marty was his best path to get rid of his threats (Brenda, Jane, Chase), but he wasn't able to convince Brenda to make the move to keep Marty at this point and that will be his demise in the next 4 tribals. Brenda will use his swing vote until she no longer needs it.

My prediction as to the final elimination is as follows (based on how it benefits Brenda):
Benry
Fabio (could be reversed based on II)
Jane
Sash (fails to use HII)
Chase
Holly
Kelly

Last edited by TonyDanza; 11-12-2010 at 02:35 AM. Reason: My only basis for the boot list is how it benefits Brenda. For some reason I like her chances.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:21 AM   #2969
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

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Fairplay just said he wouldn't let his kids play with Jane's kids.
fairplay also said he would let Stephen give his daughter a bath
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:51 AM   #2970
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

first ever rob c podcast listen...definitely enjoyable.

lol @ Kos as in Cosby!
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:55 AM   #2971
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

It wasn't his best podcast either. I love Fairplay, but I didn't think he was on his A-game.

I'm just now reaching the comments part, but I guess that means he answered my "Are you a Benry fan yet?" question.
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:56 AM   #2972
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Spoiler:
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:00 AM   #2973
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

Heh, you didn't have to put it in spoilers. But yeah, just heard it. I'm not surprised Nicole doesn't like Benry, but I think you have to love anyone who puts out good confessionals, and "dirt squirrel" is about as good as it gets.
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:01 AM   #2974
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

any recs on podcast from this season to listen to?

don't think i'll ever make it thru all of them (but i'll start from here) but a top 3 as a guide would be awesome.
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:09 AM   #2975
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Re: Survivor: Nicaragua

It's tough to remember which ones are the best. I loved the Coach-cast, but as you heard them say this week, some people hated it. I think it depends on how much you like/hate Coach. Stephen is always great, so that's a good one to check out, and Cirie was entertaining (though that was after the first episode, so there's not much detail about the cast). Other than that, I'm having trouble remembering which ones are good, though I remember not liking Tyson or Russell Swan all that much. Someone with a better memory can probably recommend a couple more to check out.
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