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***Official*** LOST: The End. ***Official*** LOST: The End.

08-09-2010 , 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KneeCo
This is exactly the prob. You're suggesting a particular critique/reaction/view of the story is "******ed" in light of the creators statements in the press months in advance of publication.
I agree - the show has to stand in it's own - you shouldn't have to follow quotes from directors/writers/creators/etc to shape your opinion of the show.

If someone started watching this show for the first time in a couple years, they shouldn't need to find "cheat sheets" to help explain the show. If it doesn't stand in it's own, it fails imo.
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08-09-2010 , 06:01 PM
epilogue has been leaked. as much as i complained about the 6th season, i would not mind watching hundreds of these mini-series.
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08-09-2010 , 08:34 PM
The epilogue sucks. Just rapid fires off answers to a bunch of questions I stopped caring about a long time ago. It's as if they wanted to show just how uninteresting and boring "ANSWERS!" for the show look like.

When I heard about the epilogue, I thought we'd actually see stuff with Ben and Hurley on the island. I think I would have just preferred 14 more mins of mysterious island stuff instead of just being force fed answers.
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08-09-2010 , 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by baumer

Of course, I caught wind of the news after season 3 that they had signed on for 3 more years and the show would end with the sixth season. This piqued my interest and I actually started watching the show only because they had three entire years to wrap up what I thought was going to be a sweet series-long arc.

I never would have watched Lost if it wasn't for the reports the writers had at least a skeleton of an idea of what was to happen in the long run.
All of this stuff actually happened by the way. There's simply a difference between having a series-long arc that is given resolution at the end of the series (which did, in fact, occur) and tying up every single loose end and mystery that was ever presented, mentioned or speculated about over the previous 70+ hours of television.
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08-09-2010 , 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
All of this stuff actually happened by the way. There's simply a difference between having a series-long arc that is given resolution at the end of the series (which did, in fact, occur) and tying up every single loose end and mystery that was ever presented, mentioned or speculated about over the previous 70+ hours of television.
Really? What was the plan, other than Jack's eye with the dog next to him? What part of S4 shows evidence for it.
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08-09-2010 , 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCollins
Really? What was the plan, other than Jack's eye with the dog next to him? What part of S4 shows evidence for it.
They introduced Jacob in S4 and the story shifted over to him and MIB.
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08-09-2010 , 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DeadMoneyWalking
They introduced Jacob in S4 and the story shifted over to him and MIB.
Actually, he was introduced as early as season 2 IIRC.

I will say the season 4-5 setup was actually pretty good. Killing Jacob through a super elaborate plan seems like the best evidence. Killing Ben's daughter to be able to manipulate him to kill Jacob with Locke being dead (which I believe was end of Season 3), was fantastic. Season 6 just didn't seem to logically flow from that. It's almost like they had their arc, completed 90% it in Season 5, then needed a "unique" twist to go along with flashback and flashforwards to change things up. The season 3-5 arc was actually pretty well done and is what gave me the most hope. I just wish 6 could have fit better into it. It also seemed to have a ton of potential with the sideways being the result of what they actually did. It really seemed like they were setting something up, especially with the island on the bottom of the ocean. But it was pretty insulting just to have such a major part of the season just there as a red herring.
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08-09-2010 , 11:16 PM
The one line that always bugged me was from Smokey to Jacob in the foot.
(paraphrasing)

Jacob: "I guess you found your loophole."
Smokey: "You have no idea what I've been through to get here."

Seriously? Jacob doesn't know what he's been up to? How is that possible?
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08-09-2010 , 11:39 PM


Weezer's new album is to be called "Hurley". That is apparently the real cover.
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08-10-2010 , 12:59 AM
I found the epilogue annoying for the most part.

IMO something making the kinds of discussions ITT the last couple days tougher and the epilogue annoying is that there are three types of people who were fans of the show as it went:
1. those who like the way it shook out (apologists?)
2. people who didn't like the last season because they wanted answers to all the little mysteries (or liked it ok, but felt mixed because they didn't get enough answers)
3. people who didn't like what the last season revealed about the (lack of) plot for the series as a whole.

The problem is that people in group 1 tend to yell at the people in group 2 and ignore us in group 3. The epilogue does the same - it allows the group 1ers to feel great about themselves by LOLing at group 2 and simultaneously they get some cute little mystery answers. The group 2 guys will actually like it the best because they were the most interested in how all the little **** worked. For those of us in group 3 it's only annoying because it seems smug and doesn't address plot issues. Actually, I guess they did with the whole Walt thing, but TBH that seemed like a load of ****.

I made my point about a million times ITT and the ones for the last few episodes. I thought they pretty much destroyed the plot from the first 5 seasons, particularly the first three, by revealing that nothing interesting was behind the characters' motivations. For two examples, Walt and Aaron not actually being special or important makes those kidnapping plots pretty meh. Not the worst television ever, but we didn't get sucked in because we were worried about them - we did because we were dying to know why they were so important. I enjoyed the ride and all, but it sucks that it was all smoke and mirrors.

Unfortunately, I don't think they can do much with an epilogue for people that had similar problems as I did with the last season. I'd love to get an honest answer from the writers what they were planning with some of that stuff, or if they were just sucking us in with vacuums like it looks. It'll never happen though as it would be dumb for them to be honest. Maybe in 20+ years something will come out.
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08-10-2010 , 01:34 AM
The epilogue was pretty meh for me, but for some reason, I am very open now to expanding the LOST universe. Two months ago I wanted this thing closed book and never touched, but I actually think there could be some great stories both past and present to the 815ers.

TC, I agree with you that season 6 sucked, but you are way waaaay too bitter about this.

Maybe that's why the entire theme of the show is letting go.

Just let it go man.
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08-10-2010 , 01:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaredL
I found the epilogue annoying for the most part.

IMO something making the kinds of discussions ITT the last couple days tougher and the epilogue annoying is that there are three types of people who were fans of the show as it went:
1. those who like the way it shook out (apologists?)
2. people who didn't like the last season because they wanted answers to all the little mysteries (or liked it ok, but felt mixed because they didn't get enough answers)
3. people who didn't like what the last season revealed about the (lack of) plot for the series as a whole.

The problem is that people in group 1 tend to yell at the people in group 2 and ignore us in group 3. The epilogue does the same - it allows the group 1ers to feel great about themselves by LOLing at group 2 and simultaneously they get some cute little mystery answers. The group 2 guys will actually like it the best because they were the most interested in how all the little **** worked. For those of us in group 3 it's only annoying because it seems smug and doesn't address plot issues. Actually, I guess they did with the whole Walt thing, but TBH that seemed like a load of ****.

I made my point about a million times ITT and the ones for the last few episodes. I thought they pretty much destroyed the plot from the first 5 seasons, particularly the first three, by revealing that nothing interesting was behind the characters' motivations. For two examples, Walt and Aaron not actually being special or important makes those kidnapping plots pretty meh. Not the worst television ever, but we didn't get sucked in because we were worried about them - we did because we were dying to know why they were so important.
I'm not exactly sure what this means. The characters were important to people that liked the characters. I can care about a man watching his son get kidnapped by would-be rescuers without it being part of the island's future.
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08-10-2010 , 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCollins
Really? What was the plan, other than Jack's eye with the dog next to him? What part of S4 shows evidence for it.
Ugh, I addressed this earlier ad nauseum in the thread...but no I'm not talking about just Jack's eye and the dog being their big plan from the start (and by start, this could mean the general time around s1-s2). I'm talking about THE main plot arc/mystery. Just so we're clear, that would be Who are these people and for what purpose/reason were they "brought" to the island? What's at stake?

Now yes, there were tons of other mysteries that were introduced along the way but I don't see how anyone can really deny that the above bold part was the CORE of the show. We were wondering, is Locke just full of it saying stuff like "the island brought us here." How can an island bring people to it? What possible purpose could this have? And who are these people that are supposedly so important to the island?

This arc is fully resolved in the final season. Perhaps you didn't like HOW it was resolved, that's perfectly acceptable. But it WAS resolved. I don't think you're trolling in this thread TomCollins, but when you say stuff like "These writers were just throwing turds at the wall", I sort of wonder. I mean seriously, you've admitted that you enjoyed the writing immensely for 5 seasons, right?? And you're upset that their vision for the resolution of the show fell well short of what you'd hoped it would be. That doesn't automatically mean they're hacks that pulled it out of their ass at the 11th hour. That's POSSIBLE, but not the logical explanation of you being greatly disappointed with The End.

I'm the first to admit that s4 does introduce the most frustrating of the show's loose ends. Part of this is due to the strike-shortened season no doubt but also the writers made several errors in how they started expanding the arc in s4 without attempting to bring large portions of it it back around in the final 2 seasons. All of this is moot when it comes to how much of a plan they had for the GENERAL ARC OF THE SERIES, which is what I was addressing to the previous post. I don't believe the whole series went to **** based on the last season, just some of it fell short of what was built up in previous seasons. It hardly ruins the series for me. I intend to get the series DVD when its released. I don't own any of the other DVD's and I simply feel it's a show worth owning. When I re-watch the series, ya, there will be parts of it where I'm like "Man, it sucks they never addressed this particular thread, it could have been so good!" But it won't ruin every single minute of the entire story for me. Especially when, for me anyways, the resolution to the plot arc I bolded above was a satisfying one.
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08-10-2010 , 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
Ugh, I addressed this earlier ad nauseum in the thread...but no I'm not talking about just Jack's eye and the dog being their big plan from the start (and by start, this could mean the general time around s1-s2). I'm talking about THE main plot arc/mystery. Just so we're clear, that would be Who are these people and for what purpose/reason were they "brought" to the island? What's at stake?
Yeah, it really seems like that was something that was invented in the end. There were a lot of inconsistencies regarding this (the whole "you were alone") stuff may have fit some characters, but was really far off on others. There is also the good vs. evil part of it, but I don't really see a huge part of that being displayed early on. Remember, we were told that there were "things in the pilot that would show we knew where we were going". I can't think of anything that seems to back that up and it appears to just have been a lie. I saw no reason why those particular people were brought to the island. I saw no reason why Jacob decided to go touch them all (or even what that accomplished). Yeah, he wanted them to have a choice to save the island. I never saw why Smokey getting off the island was so terrible. I never saw why the island crumbling and falling under the ocean would have been that bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
Now yes, there were tons of other mysteries that were introduced along the way but I don't see how anyone can really deny that the above bold part was the CORE of the show. We were wondering, is Locke just full of it saying stuff like "the island brought us here." How can an island bring people to it? What possible purpose could this have? And who are these people that are supposedly so important to the island?

This arc is fully resolved in the final season. Perhaps you didn't like HOW it was resolved, that's perfectly acceptable. But it WAS resolved. I don't think you're trolling in this thread TomCollins, but when you say stuff like "These writers were just throwing turds at the wall", I sort of wonder. I mean seriously, you've admitted that you enjoyed the writing immensely for 5 seasons, right?? And you're upset that their vision for the resolution of the show fell well short of what you'd hoped it would be. That doesn't automatically mean they're hacks that pulled it out of their ass at the 11th hour. That's POSSIBLE, but not the logical explanation of you being greatly disappointed with The End.
I still don't even get why they were brought there. Jacob's plans don't seem consistent. Bring people there because he was in danger. But to be in danger, he needed to have brought people there to kill him. I enjoyed a lot of parts of the show, and there were a lot of parts that were very lacking, but I tolerated it since it appeared to just be buildup for something grand. Unfortunately that payoff never happened.

The other point is there are so many major plotlines that were brought up as SUPER IMPORTANT and just abandoned. Aaron, Walt, the fertility issues, Alvar Hanso, etc... It's perfectly clear there was no plan for this, and this was just turds thrown at a wall just to make drama, but with no real thought behind it other than making things exciting at the time. That's my main beef.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
I'm the first to admit that s4 does introduce the most frustrating of the show's loose ends. Part of this is due to the strike-shortened season no doubt but also the writers made several errors in how they started expanding the arc in s4 without attempting to bring large portions of it it back around in the final 2 seasons. All of this is moot when it comes to how much of a plan they had for the GENERAL ARC OF THE SERIES, which is what I was addressing to the previous post. I don't believe the whole series went to **** based on the last season, just some of it fell short of what was built up in previous seasons. It hardly ruins the series for me. I intend to get the series DVD when its released. I don't own any of the other DVD's and I simply feel it's a show worth owning. When I re-watch the series, ya, there will be parts of it where I'm like "Man, it sucks they never addressed this particular thread, it could have been so good!" But it won't ruin every single minute of the entire story for me. Especially when, for me anyways, the resolution to the plot arc I bolded above was a satisfying one.
I just have a hard time viewing that arc as being satisfying. Obviously opinions will differ. I either missed something (which I find hard to believe knowing it would have been pointed out many times in this thread), or we just have different tastes. Not a big deal. If you really enjoyed the characters and getting to know them, great, it probably was an amazing show. I never really cared that much for many of them (besides Ben, Sawyer, and Desmond). The rest came across as whiny bitches who were bumbling idiots who I hoped got themselves killed. Jack was the king ****** for most of the series who was only occasionally outdone by Locke. I gave Locke the nickname of Gilligan due to his incompetence and stupidity early on.

If they wanted to have a character centric show, they could have done it without a lot of nonsense. Like everyone somehow being connected in weird ways. That just came across as a gimmick that had no payoff. The daddy issue stuff seems to be another one. It seemed like that might be important, but wasn't really. It's the lack of attention to these kinds of things that give me the impression that they just constantly were trying to come up with "weird and interesting" ideas, without actually thinking it through. That's what separates them as storytellers from those who are actually truly gifted in the art. The repetition of the numbers is another classic example of something they came up with as super weird and possibly super important, but in the end was meaningless. Unless you believe the cave numbers were actually meaningful, which in the end turns out they weren't at all, since Kate's name was crossed off, but she could still take over. That definitely strikes me as put on at the end.

It's not like Stephen King just randomly puts random crap into his novels to make them weird. He doesn't make every character have 6 toes for unexplained reasons and just abandons it. You'd think if there was something weird like that in it, it would have a purpose to the story. If it didn't, it would take away from the story.

I would be interested in what parts of the big arc you were describing was interesting and complete to you. I'm curious what someone who views those things positively took away from it. I think there really seemed to be an overall meaning and theme missing from a story that had the chance to really pick a side and say something meaningful.
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08-10-2010 , 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCollins
Yeah, it really seems like that was something that was invented in the end. There were a lot of inconsistencies regarding this (the whole "you were alone") stuff may have fit some characters, but was really far off on others. There is also the good vs. evil part of it, but I don't really see a huge part of that being displayed early on. Remember, we were told that there were "things in the pilot that would show we knew where we were going". I can't think of anything that seems to back that up and it appears to just have been a lie. I saw no reason why those particular people were brought to the island. I saw no reason why Jacob decided to go touch them all (or even what that accomplished). Yeah, he wanted them to have a choice to save the island. I never saw why Smokey getting off the island was so terrible. I never saw why the island crumbling and falling under the ocean would have been that bad.
Really? I mean it wasn't written down in stone somewhere exactly what would happen if Smokey got off and the island sunk but it seems clear it would be pretty catastrophic. The light is "life, death, rebirth" and if it goes out there, it goes out everywhere. They also say, SEVERAL times, that if Smokey leaves the island "Every single person you know and care about will die." Perhaps die, like, for real die...no afterlife. So I was led to believe that whatever afterlife/purgatory/flashsideways experience we were seeing was only possible if the light stays on. But maybe I'm off base on that. Nevertheless, I was satisfied with how it was handled. I didn't need detailed scripture of what would become of the human race. They gave very strong hints as to how high the stakes were, and for me personally, that was enough.

As for all the "look to the Pilot" stuff, whatever. They'll likely point to the Locke/Walt convo about backgammon as a clue that they had an idea in mind all along for two sort of deity type characters that would represent or settle the balance between good and evil. Maybe this is true, maybe it's not. But it doesn't seem that far fetched to me. Pointing to clues doesn't even seem necessary when you consider it's a very standard storytelling device.


Quote:
I still don't even get why they were brought there. Jacob's plans don't seem consistent. Bring people there because he was in danger. But to be in danger, he needed to have brought people there to kill him. I enjoyed a lot of parts of the show, and there were a lot of parts that were very lacking, but I tolerated it since it appeared to just be buildup for something grand. Unfortunately that payoff never happened.
I don't think he ever said he brought people to the island because he was in danger. He says in the penultimate episode that he brought people to the island to fix a mistake he made (creating Smokey). I suppose he could have just sat there with Smokey for eternity, but it seems like people or aliens would find the island at some point. So he chose to be proactive in bringing recruits to the island to help him eliminate Smokey. All that stuff seemed fairly straightforward.


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The other point is there are so many major plotlines that were brought up as SUPER IMPORTANT and just abandoned. Aaron, Walt, the fertility issues, Alvar Hanso, etc... It's perfectly clear there was no plan for this, and this was just turds thrown at a wall just to make drama, but with no real thought behind it other than making things exciting at the time. That's my main beef.
Fertility issues is probably the one from this list I was also most disappointed about. Aaron and Walt, meh. I think it might be because I watched the series for the first time consecutively, online, after s5 ended. I didn't really have time to process all the hanging s1 and s2 threads because a few weeks later I was already immersed in s3-s4. I guess I can sort of understand the people who only had mysteries like Aaron and Walt to ponder for literally years being upset that it was completely thrown by the wayside. But in terms of the whole arc of the show, I don't see it as incredibly relevant. Was it disappointing that it's completely ignored? Yes. Does it ruin every single aspect of the show thereafter? No.


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The repetition of the numbers is another classic example of something they came up with as super weird and possibly super important, but in the end was meaningless. Unless you believe the cave numbers were actually meaningful, which in the end turns out they weren't at all, since Kate's name was crossed off, but she could still take over. That definitely strikes me as put on at the end.
Pretty much agree with this, especially considering the numbers mystery would have been very easy and taken very little time to wrap up. Especially annoying when they bring the numbers back into focus in the final season (whereas with other mysteries like Walt, Aaron, fertility, they are just abandoned completely).


Quote:
I would be interested in what parts of the big arc you were describing was interesting and complete to you. I'm curious what someone who views those things positively took away from it. I think there really seemed to be an overall meaning and theme missing from a story that had the chance to really pick a side and say something meaningful.
There's a lot of interesting stuff from the series. As you alluded to earlier, I think most of the appreciation of the show comes from how you feel about the characters. If you didn't find any of the characters the least bit interesting outside of Ben, Desmond and Sawyer, then ya, I have a hard time imagining you'd care about their journey. For me, the characters go through different stretches of likability. For example, I didn't really mind Kate in s1 and parts of s2, but by the end of the series she's basically intolerable. At any rate, I wonder how much your opinion of the characters stems from your massive disappointment with the final season. You have said you loved the series right up until the moment s6 started. If we went back to that point in time, would your attitude really be "Oh ya, I only care about these 3 characters kind of, the rest are completely boring and uninteresting and I've never had an interest in their fates."

Aside from the character stories (which do take up a large portion of the series), there's a lot of interesting themes that are explored throughout the series. It wasn't perfect storytelling by any means, but it was definitely compelling, and not just because of the mystery aspect of the show. I can understand how certain aspects of the final season seemed cookie-cutter, but for me, it doesn't completely destroy all the elements of faith/science, fate/freewill, redemption/corruption, good/evil, etc that were explored throughout the series and in the final season.

Last edited by Vagos; 08-10-2010 at 02:41 PM.
***Official*** LOST: The End. Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
Really? I mean it wasn't written down in stone somewhere exactly what would happen if Smokey got off and the island sunk but it seems clear it would be pretty catastrophic. The light is "life, death, rebirth" and if it goes out there, it goes out everywhere. They also say, SEVERAL times, that if Smokey leaves the island "Every single person you know and care about will die." Perhaps die, like, for real die...no afterlife. So I was led to believe that whatever afterlife/purgatory/flashsideways experience we were seeing was only possible if the light stays on. But maybe I'm off base on that. Nevertheless, I was satisfied with how it was handled. I didn't need detailed scripture of what would become of the human race. They gave very strong hints as to how high the stakes were, and for me personally, that was enough.
A lot of this came from untrustworthy sources, though. That's the first I have heard of the "pergatory goes out if the light goes out" theory, and is an interesting one, but I don't believe it was ever even hinted at. There was the idea everyone would die if he got off somehow. But even this wasn't entirely something you could just take at face value. Once he lost his super powers when the island's butt plug was removed, he didn't seem all that dangerous. He was just a desperate guy who wanted to go home. I would have enjoyed the show more if he had actually been the good guy, which was almost hinted at in Ab Aeterno. He was much more likable than Jacob in that episode. There was talk about the world would be destroyed if the light went out, but then there was no guarantee it would be like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
As for all the "look to the Pilot" stuff, whatever. They'll likely point to the Locke/Walt convo about backgammon as a clue that they had an idea in mind all along for two sort of deity type characters that would represent or settle the balance between good and evil. Maybe this is true, maybe it's not. But it doesn't seem that far fetched to me. Pointing to clues doesn't even seem necessary when you consider it's a very standard storytelling device.
I agree that they probably had some basic themes figured out. But I'm not sure they had a clear direction in where they wanted to go since the "good vs. evil" theme didn't really provide much of a meaningful conclusion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
I don't think he ever said he brought people to the island because he was in danger. He says in the penultimate episode that he brought people to the island to fix a mistake he made (creating Smokey). I suppose he could have just sat there with Smokey for eternity, but it seems like people or aliens would find the island at some point. So he chose to be proactive in bringing recruits to the island to help him eliminate Smokey. All that stuff seemed fairly straightforward.
I'll give you that, he wanted to take the chance to take him out. Although it didn't seem to be the direct focus of it. He was bringing people to the island before Smokey even appeared to be that dangerous (Richard's boat, for example). Again, it just seems like something invented after too much stuff was already decided, and it didn't fit in. That's pretty much my argument for the poor overall storytelling element. The major arc theme was there, but the actual telling of it was not there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
Fertility issues is probably the one from this list I was also most disappointed about. Aaron and Walt, meh. I think it might be because I watched the series for the first time consecutively, online, after s5 ended. I didn't really have time to process all the hanging s1 and s2 threads because a few weeks later I was already immersed in s3-s4. I guess I can sort of understand the people who only had mysteries like Aaron and Walt to ponder for literally years being upset that it was completely thrown by the wayside. But in terms of the whole arc of the show, I don't see it as incredibly relevant. Was it disappointing that it's completely ignored? Yes. Does it ruin every single aspect of the show thereafter? No.
I'm not saying it ruined it all, it just shows it was bad storytelling. Bad storytelling can sometimes be entertaining. You don't bring up major season-long subplots just to abandon them. It's just awful. And even the excuse that Walt grew too fast is lame. Just keep using him being huge. Or find a replacement actor. Shows replace actors all the time. Whatever, we'll deal with it. We know it's not reality. Aaron had several actors portray him. No big deal. Again, my issue is these things were introduced with a time frame of a few episodes without any actual thought on the big picture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
Pretty much agree with this, especially considering the numbers mystery would have been very easy and taken very little time to wrap up. Especially annoying when they bring the numbers back into focus in the final season (whereas with other mysteries like Walt, Aaron, fertility, they are just abandoned completely).
Again, it's problematic because there was no real thought behind putting them in the show. Why do they keep coming up? "Oh, uh, Venzetti Equation". What's that? "Uh, it predicts the end of the world! Therefore they are important!" So many points come across as a bunch of guys getting stoned off their ass and coming up with weird ideas, throwing a script together, and not bothering to question the big picture. I tolerated and enjoyed it because I thought it was for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
There's a lot of interesting stuff from the series. As you alluded to earlier, I think most of the appreciation of the show comes from how you feel about the characters. If you didn't find any of the characters the least bit interesting outside of Ben, Desmond and Sawyer, then ya, I have a hard time imagining you'd care about their journey. For me, the characters go through different stretches of likability. For example, I didn't really mind Kate in s1 and parts of s2, but by the end of the series she's basically intolerable. At any rate, I wonder how much your opinion of the characters stems from your massive disappointment with the final season. You have said you loved the series right up until the moment s6 started. If we went back to that point in time, would your attitude really be "Oh ya, I only care about these 3 characters kind of, the rest are completely boring and uninteresting and I've never had an interest in their fates."
Most of my opinions on the characters were formed very early. I remember Locke seeming like a huge tool. Jack was sometimes a badass, sometimes a jackass. I agree with Kate, she got much worse as time went on. Jack actually seemed to get better, as did Locke. Charlie, Claire, Sun- awful. Jin- cool when he was a badass. Sayid- liked him, not his flashbacks as much. Shannon - awful. Ana Lucia- terrible. Michael- omg, how awful he was. Hurley was good for a few jokes and served his point. Obviously loved Miles and Frank. But I tolerated this since they seemed there to advance the plot.

Much of my love for the early seasons were that we were actually on a journey heading toward something. Obviously there is some enjoyment in some of the better episodes (The Long Con is still my favorite). But much of the enjoyment for me was anticipating how it was going to come together and how my mind was going to be blown. I don't think this is terribly unrealistic since we were often promised this by the producers. I don't have unusually high standards and tend to enjoy a lot of films and television shows that do have this kind of feel to them. I will watch them again and again and get something out of it. But if I want to watch something just for the characters, I'll watch Arrested Development or King of the Hill.

Even so, it was extremely frustrating having so little action happen each week. I would tune in each week trying to figure out what would happen if the button wasn't pressed, or to figure out who are these mysterious other people on the island. The flashbacks were hit or miss. Sometimes they were great, sometimes they just were annoying breaks from the action.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagos
Aside from the character stories (which do take up a large portion of the series), there's a lot of interesting themes that are explored throughout the series. It wasn't perfect storytelling by any means, but it was definitely compelling, and not just because of the mystery aspect of the show. I can understand how certain aspects of the final season seemed cookie-cutter, but for me, it doesn't completely destroy all the elements of faith/science, fate/freewill, redemption/corruption, good/evil, etc that were explored throughout the series and in the final season.
The themes were brought up, but it seems like they didn't do much with them. Again, "ooh, black vs white!" "good vs. evil!" "Fate vs. free will!" "Faith vs. Reason!" Yeah, they were explored, but I would have preferred to have some kind of actual resulting message from it. I guess good beat evil. The bomb didn't work. But it really seemed like the themes were window dressing, not the actual meat of the show. I agree those themes are extremely interesting, I just wish they would have been explored and finalized more in the end. The main message at the end was "everyone's time on the island was the best part of their life" or whatever it was just seemed so contrived and empty.

In the end, most of my frustration is most of all with being lied to. I believe DL and CC are laughing all the way to the bank on Lost. They didn't have to produce anything great, they just needed to promise it was great. Unfortunately, they didn't have the integrity to actually follow through, or they were so misguided they actually thought it was great. I think they are mainly covering their own ass now with making all this "answer" stuff so lame just to try to prove themselves as right that they shouldn't have gone down that path. They are just so smug and full of themselves, they couldn't possibly have gotten anything wrong.

I do realize it is a hard thing to do and very few people do get it right. They got so many things right, I thought they had to be capable of getting the rest of it right. I shouldn't have made that mistake. Usually I can figure out things ahead of time in this stuff, and especially with the weeks and months between episodes, if there were actual answers and hints along the way, too many people would have figured it out. So what better way to make it unsolvable than to not have an "answer" at all?
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08-10-2010 , 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TomCollins

If they wanted to have a character centric show, they could have done it without a lot of nonsense. Like everyone somehow being connected in weird ways. That just came across as a gimmick that had no payoff. The daddy issue stuff seems to be another one. It seemed like that might be important, but wasn't really. It's the lack of attention to these kinds of things that give me the impression that they just constantly were trying to come up with "weird and interesting" ideas, without actually thinking it through. That's what separates them as storytellers from those who are actually truly gifted in the art. The repetition of the numbers is another classic example of something they came up with as super weird and possibly super important, but in the end was meaningless. Unless you believe the cave numbers were actually meaningful, which in the end turns out they weren't at all, since Kate's name was crossed off, but she could still take over. That definitely strikes me as put on at the end.

It's not like Stephen King just randomly puts random crap into his novels to make them weird. He doesn't make every character have 6 toes for unexplained reasons and just abandons it. You'd think if there was something weird like that in it, it would have a purpose to the story. If it didn't, it would take away from the story.

I would be interested in what parts of the big arc you were describing was interesting and complete to you. I'm curious what someone who views those things positively took away from it. I think there really seemed to be an overall meaning and theme missing from a story that had the chance to really pick a side and say something meaningful.
Here you make a real point. Yes they did bring up some storylines as important ones and then go away from them. That happens in serial tv, I saw it wrestling all the time. When you have multiple people in control sometimes minds are going to get changed. And there are other issues such as cast members getting DUIs or not wanting to return. Stephen King doesn't have that problem.

As for likeable characters, Lost's appeal was that there were many of them. some people thought Kate was just so cool. I wanted Ana Lucia to shoot her and take over the show. That just a personal thing that doesn't reflect on the show quality.
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08-10-2010 , 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DeadMoneyWalking
Here you make a real point. Yes they did bring up some storylines as important ones and then go away from them. That happens in serial tv, I saw it wrestling all the time. When you have multiple people in control sometimes minds are going to get changed. And there are other issues such as cast members getting DUIs or not wanting to return. Stephen King doesn't have that problem.

As for likeable characters, Lost's appeal was that there were many of them. some people thought Kate was just so cool. I wanted Ana Lucia to shoot her and take over the show. That just a personal thing that doesn't reflect on the show quality.
I understand the difficulties of making many season long serial television shows that an author who has many years to work on books does not have. And I'm willing to forgive them for these problems. Notice I never once complained about Mr. Eko (another badass character I forgot), Ana Lucia, or whoever else got a DUI. As for the idea that minds were changed, it's possible. I just don't think things were ever fully thought out. They were thought out to the first or second level, and never beyond. Obviously you don't want to over-plan certain things since people leave the show and all, but you need to have a lot of that planned out better.

In cases where the length of something is huge or unknown, it's going to happen a lot more. Wrestling is going to last decades. Story lines are going to change based on popularity of various wrestlers. I don't expect great story lines from Wrestling (if I watched it) as I would out of other things. I don't expect a TV drama over 6 seasons to be as well put together as a series of novels.

Obviously shows need unlikable characters. But you generally design them that way. I don't think the creators of the show meant for Kate to be so awful, but she comes across that way due to poor acting and poor storytelling. Her stories did not make you relate to her. Yeah, certain people will always relate to certain characters more than others. I can't put my finger on what made the Lost characters so inferior, but it just never clicked for me. And it's not because I dislike characters. Two of my favorite shows that I mentioned are highly character centric and some of the main reasons I like them.

Lost did succeed in having a lot of characters and that probably made things a pain to get everything right. They did a pretty good job of bringing a lot of depth to a lot of different people. I'll give some credit there. It made it possible to stretch or thin out the series tremendously through flashbacks since you could make several episodes just for each character. It seems like that was either clever planning or dumb luck, but I'll assume it was done on purpose. Good for them.

Obviously Lost is not at the level of garbage of things like Flash Forward or such, but it really had the chance to hit pretty high levels of greatness, and missed pretty hard on that. It was certainly a pop culture phenomenon and will always hold a great deal of value for me just for that. I thought for sure going into Season 6 I would want to watch it all over again very shortly. I'm not sure I ever will, though. Poor storytelling is the main reason why. It was great storytelling on a week by week basis, but judging it as a whole is where it really lacks. There was a ton of promise and a ton of great things, just the big picture failed in my mind.

I do wonder if JJ Abrams leaving the show in the hands of the other two was the turning point of the show, though. I don't know enough of the inner workings of who did what when, but it certainly is possible that Abrams was a little bit better of planning stuff out.
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08-10-2010 , 07:26 PM
JJ Abrams left after 6 episodes to direct Mission Impossible 3.
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08-11-2010 , 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TomCollins
A lot of this came from untrustworthy sources, though. That's the first I have heard of the "pergatory goes out if the light goes out" theory, and is an interesting one, but I don't believe it was ever even hinted at.
It's definitely hinted at, just not spelled out. Like I said, Eve refers to the cave/light as "life, death, rebirth." This is how I would describe the process that our LOSTies experience in the flash sideways...whenever they have their breakthrough or whatever you want to call it. And they can move on to the next phase, a rebirth. It also goes hand in hand with standard biblical stuff. Jack (Shephard) makes a sacrifice, why? So people after him can move on into the afterlife. Again, I'm not sure it was the intention that the light on=afterlife, but I definitely think there is evidence for it.

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There was the idea everyone would die if he got off somehow. But even this wasn't entirely something you could just take at face value. Once he lost his super powers when the island's butt plug was removed, he didn't seem all that dangerous. He was just a desperate guy who wanted to go home. I would have enjoyed the show more if he had actually been the good guy, which was almost hinted at in Ab Aeterno. He was much more likable than Jacob in that episode. There was talk about the world would be destroyed if the light went out, but then there was no guarantee it would be like that.
Well, if the light is out, yes, Smokey becomes harmless, but, the light is out! The sole point of the island and its protector, is to keep the light on. Smokey is tied to the light. He could only ever leave the island if the light goes out. So perhaps it wasn't the actual MiB entity leaving that was so catastrophic, it was simply that him leaving meant the light was out, and that's the big danger.

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The themes were brought up, but it seems like they didn't do much with them. Again, "ooh, black vs white!" "good vs. evil!" "Fate vs. free will!" "Faith vs. Reason!" Yeah, they were explored, but I would have preferred to have some kind of actual resulting message from it. I guess good beat evil. The bomb didn't work. But it really seemed like the themes were window dressing, not the actual meat of the show. I agree those themes are extremely interesting, I just wish they would have been explored and finalized more in the end. The main message at the end was "everyone's time on the island was the best part of their life" or whatever it was just seemed so contrived and empty.
I will agree some themes were given less exploration than others. But I think you're sort of oversimplifying the "main message" at the end of the story. I would say, the characters were all LOST in some way. Through a stroke of fate, they all got caught up in this mythological battle, fairly grand in scale and even though some of them died still being as LOST as ever (Locke, for example), they all find the same path to redemption or vindication and they make that journey together. Some of them redeem themselves in their real life (Sayid, Ben), and some find vindication waiting in the afterlife (Jack, Locke). Jack's moment sort of occurs simultaneously between his transition, which is shown in the final 10 minutes of the series. I think it's cool that he has this sort of contented "I did it" look just as he's about to die, but he's the last one to catch on in the flash sideways.

Maybe not the best summary, but you get the idea. That would be my quick take on an overarching "final message" or what have you. Again, I think there's a decent amount of character resolution to make all sorts of statements about what you can take away as the main point of the show.

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In the end, most of my frustration is most of all with being lied to. I believe DL and CC are laughing all the way to the bank on Lost. They didn't have to produce anything great, they just needed to promise it was great. Unfortunately, they didn't have the integrity to actually follow through, or they were so misguided they actually thought it was great. I think they are mainly covering their own ass now with making all this "answer" stuff so lame just to try to prove themselves as right that they shouldn't have gone down that path. They are just so smug and full of themselves, they couldn't possibly have gotten anything wrong.

I do realize it is a hard thing to do and very few people do get it right. They got so many things right, I thought they had to be capable of getting the rest of it right. I shouldn't have made that mistake. Usually I can figure out things ahead of time in this stuff, and especially with the weeks and months between episodes, if there were actual answers and hints along the way, too many people would have figured it out. So what better way to make it unsolvable than to not have an "answer" at all?
I don't know, I guess I'll be labeled an "apologist" or whatever, but I think DL and CC did a pretty good job with the show in general. I won't completely excuse them for driving home the mystery aspect of the show. They definitely did a lot of that with their podcasts and viewer access, twitter's, etc. And no doubt, they fell short in several areas pertaining to that mystery device. But I do think it's important to remember how many people go into making a tv show. We saw the trailers every week for a new s6 episode that kept saying QUESTIONS WILL BE FINALLY BE ANSWERED. It's not like DL and CC are making these trailers. The network wants you to keep tuning in and so it markets the show in the most tantalizing way possible. DL and CC are just writing the story. They goofed on a number of things. They screwed up a bunch of threads and plot lines. They likely changed gears at some point along the way. But I personally think going into s6, they had all the beats basically covered with a general outline for the beginning-middle-end. I don't think there's anyway really that they made up what the flash sideways was at the last minute. (Yes, the island underwater was a cheap red herring).

I just think it's unfair to assume they were lying to us all along. Like it was some master plan of theirs to portray the show as one thing and then completely screw everyone over in the final season. I will agree that they are smug in the sense that have never really admitted a slip or error on their part. There's no doubt they have regrets about certain things that happened throughout the course of the show. And I'm sure they regret some of their own decisions. They definitely changed up the direction of the show along the way.

But I think in the end, a lot of these shortcomings are more to do with the writing process for a network serialized drama as opposed to just some big long con on the part of DL and CC.
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08-11-2010 , 04:02 PM
The main questions of the show that were established in the first season

1. Did we crash and survive for a reason or was it just random chance and is there some greater purpose to all of us being here?
2. What is the island and why is it so unique?
3. Can the characters find some kind of peace/redemption?

You can fault the writers for being to vague with #2...a more detailed answer would have probably made people a lot more happy....but essentially all 3 of these were answered.
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08-11-2010 , 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlieDontSurf
The main questions of the show that were established in the first season

1. Did we crash and survive for a reason or was it just random chance and is there some greater purpose to all of us being here?
2. What is the island and why is it so unique?
3. Can the characters find some kind of peace/redemption?

You can fault the writers for being to vague with #2...a more detailed answer would have probably made people a lot more happy....but essentially all 3 of these were answered.
As far as those go-

1) Not terribly satisfying. A lot of hope was here after the Jacob touches. It still seemed a bit forced and last-minute pieced together, though, without much meaning behind it.

2) I actually was less critical of this. This was a really hard thing to really get into. I would have liked to have known more history, but I can understand why it wasn't covered. It's OK to make something that is magical a bit vague.

3) This was so obviously coming it's hard to get too excited about. Obviously Ben was going to atone for his sins and Jack was going to come around. I don't remember ever thinking this was a main concern in the early seasons.

But answering questions does not make a good story. Even sometimes, questions not answered can make a good story. That's been my main beef. So many parts seemed so without purpose and without foresight, it just feels pieced together. Obviously it was a hard task to get that part right with all the constraints of Network TV. A lot was done right early (with some things that were done wrong, but wasn't obvious until after it was over) which raised my hopes, along with the constant reassurance that they DID do it right led to my great disappointment in S6. The flash sideways in S6 seems to have really jaded me the most, as it really seemed like everything WAS coming together for a purpose, when in reality it was all just a red herring.
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08-12-2010 , 06:26 PM
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08-17-2010 , 04:17 PM
I didn't watch a single episode of LOST until it all finished. I think the one piece of LOST I ever personally witnessed was coming into my friends living room midway through season 5 (from what I recall) when Locke took Sawyer to The Black Rock in order to get him to kill his father, Anthony Cooper, for him.

So I started watching the series a couple months ago and finished it a couple weeks ago but didn't think where the thread might be on it until I remembered OOTV. Thoughts on the series:


Good god I ended up hating every single female character in the entire series, save Juliet. Claire was annoying from start to finish, and Sun got pretty bad after season 1. Kate was great the first few seasons when she played the badass chick and you didn't know too much about her past, but her character got ridiculous near the end with all the pot calling the kettle black type scenarios she was in. Charlotte, Rose and Penny were all too minor to really quibble about. Oh, and I hated that bitch Ana Lucia too.

Michael and Charlie were annoying as hell. From about 3 episodes in it was way too predictable to know how Hurley would end up so his character never really satisfied me. Desmond, Locke, Sawyer and Ben were by far my favourite characters, particularly Ben. Jack was okay. Jin was great once he spoke english (racist ban!). Sayid was a non-factor in the series: he's like the ultimate utility character, whenever they needed someone to jimmy up some episode-wasting plot device like a radio signal, or needed an extra character to go on a walk/journey/raid or stay and shoot pieces of dynamite, you could always count on Sayid.

As for the plot, I really enjoyed the first few seasons because they really had a purpose. The problems and boulders they had to move through were far more interesting than the later seasons, be it the pregnant women dying issue, or The Others attacking them, and their discovery of the D.I. stations. As the story progressed I became less interested in the group as a whole and much more interested in the individuals.

While LOST was airing live, all I could hear about it from friends was whether or not so and so questions would ever be answered. Since I was able to watch it as a series very quickly end to end, I thought most questions were answered well enough. The pregnancy thing was one big thing not resolved, and in turn the mystique of the island wasn't really delved into either. Aside from that though I felt pretty satisfied by the ending. They could have done more with it but I was mostly disappointed that the journey had to come to an end at some point because the series was indeed entertaining. Hard to stop watching one or two episodes at a time, usually ended up in watching close to five until one would finally end in a bearable cliffhanger.

I'd probably rank the seasons: 3 > 1 > 4 > 2 > 5 > 6. Not sure what the general consensus is here.

There's my pretty zero-level-thinking analysis of the series. Mostly I just wanted to watch it all just so I could say I've seen it, but it kept me interested.
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08-18-2010 , 03:43 PM
I miss this show .
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