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Making a Murderer Making a Murderer

01-16-2016 , 11:24 PM
Quote:
"Hey, did you take those cookies from the cookie jar?"

"naaa" (looks around nervously and fidgets)

"Well what were you doing 10 minutes ago?"

"uhhhh... I don't know... can't remember"

"were you outside playing with John?"

"yeeaaayyy" (long drawn out response after pause)

"But John is over at Tommys, so you weren't with John!"

"yeeeaayyy"
Long pause cause kid doesn't know wtf he's supposed to say now, but know's he'd rather be smashing some oreos while watching the Rock throw the smackdown

"Right now I'm your friend, but I wont be able to help you not be in trouble if you aren't honest with me, okay? We already know exactly what you did, so if you don't tell us exactly what happened, we won't be able to help you and you'll go to jail for the rest of your life okay?"

"Ya"

"There is a chance that that you could still have grow up and have a family, but ONLY if you are honest with us okay and tell us how you got the cookie okay?"

"Ya"

Quote:
"so did you take the cookies from the jar? be honest, you won't get in trouble. I just need to know."
"yeaaah"

"How?"

...

.......

"Okay, I'm just gonna come out and ask you. "Did you use the chair to climb on the counter so you could reach the high shelf?"

"Ya"

"And then what?"

Quote:
Child continues to list off unprompted details about the cookies and how he got them from the high shelf.
Manitowoc County Detective: "This child's stories are totally legit. He's the most dangerous human being to ever set foot in our office, I'm glad he'll be in jail forever. Damn fine police work guys!"

Last edited by lostinthesaus; 01-16-2016 at 11:36 PM.
01-16-2016 , 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by problemeliminator Making a Murderer
I'm sick of smug euros going on rants about how the US sucks.
are you equally annoyed by smug Americans boasting USA #1 greatest country in the history of the world?
01-16-2016 , 11:52 PM
Just binge-watched the first 9 episodes over the past few days:

I just finished Episode 9 which primarily covers Brendan's trial. The first thing that struck me is that his defense team was weaker than Steven's defense team.

A huge error by Brendan's defense team not to show the entire 4 hour interrogation, thus the jury didn't see the part where he told his mom "they (the detectives) got in my head." A bunch of this interrogation was shown in an earlier episode, including a minute, two, or three of Brendan talking to his mom. That was some critical footage for the defense. Also, the defense team should have put Brendan's mom on the stand to refute the detective's claim that she was asked if she wanted to be present for Brendan's interrogation.

What are everyone's thoughts on the defense allowing Brendan to take the stand? I thought Criminal Law 101 was never let the defendant take the stand.

During Episode 9, they showed the drawing and written confession from Brendan. Do we know if the jury saw the video from when the drawing and confession occurred (this video was shown in an earlier episode). If not, Brendan's legal team really f'kd Brendan. Also, I know it wasn't all of the closing argument, but the part they showed for the defense was weak as ****.

I feel sad when people don't understand the significance of a Miranda warning and that they should NEVER speak to law enforcement without legal representation.

Lastly, there is a law related podcast called Reasonable Doubt. This week's episode will include a discussion with Dean Strang (one of Steven's lawyers).
01-17-2016 , 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ligastar Making a Murderer
Just binge-watched the first 9 episodes over the past few days:

I just finished Episode 9 which primarily covers Brendan's trial. The first thing that struck me is that his defense team was weaker than Steven's defense team.

A huge error by Brendan's defense team not to show the entire 4 hour interrogation, thus the jury didn't see the part where he told his mom "they (the detectives) got in my head." A bunch of this interrogation was shown in an earlier episode, including a minute, two, or three of Brendan talking to his mom. That was some critical footage for the defense. Also, the defense team should have put Brendan's mom on the stand to refute the detective's claim that she was asked if she wanted to be present for Brendan's interrogation.

What are everyone's thoughts on the defense allowing Brendan to take the stand? I thought Criminal Law 101 was never let the defendant take the stand.

During Episode 9, they showed the drawing and written confession from Brendan. Do we know if the jury saw the video from when the drawing and confession occurred (this video was shown in an earlier episode). If not, Brendan's legal team really f'kd Brendan. Also, I know it wasn't all of the closing argument, but the part they showed for the defense was weak as ****.

I feel sad when people don't understand the significance of a Miranda warning and that they should NEVER speak to law enforcement without legal representation.

Lastly, there is a law related podcast called Reasonable Doubt. This week's episode will include a discussion with Dean Strang (one of Steven's lawyers).
I might have some facts wrong here, but Steven's team was strong because he could afford them (flaw's in the system?). Brandon's first team was equally as strong and willing to go the extra-mile for their clients. Sadly, their clients were also the prosecution.

Brandon's second team I believe was a pro bono team? Would like some more info on that.

Would also like to know if they did in fact have access to the O'malley railroading tape. I'm fairly surprised he didn't destroy that thing. Much like the great Eugene Kusch:



He probably regards it as a trophy and watches it every month to remind himself what a great service he's doing by ending gene pools of evil by making sure kids end up in jail.

Thanks for podcast info, will listen.
01-17-2016 , 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Honestly, I'm looking for that part now and can't find it. Not saying it's not there...I just genuinely can't seem to find it.


1:32:30

He seems less dumb when he tells the truth
01-17-2016 , 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre Making a Murderer
are you equally annoyed by smug Americans boasting USA #1 greatest country in the history of the world?
It's a bit like women asking me about men being dicks-not being a woman I don't have any experience with that. If Americans are telling Euros that the US is the best country in the world than they are asses, obviously(I mean directly, politicians trying to drum up votes don't count). ****ting on something else's country or saying your homeland is better than theirs is not something that socially aware well-adjusted people do.

How does Brendon 'confessing' to things that didn't happen fit into your cookie jar analogy? It's a bit like the kid confessing to eating a whole cake out of the refrigerator, but there was never a cake in the refrigerator. No one was stabbed/throat slit in that trailer. We know that beyond any reasonable doubt. Cleaning up every drop of blood without leaving any evidence of a cleanup with require Dexter-like capabilities.
01-17-2016 , 01:51 AM
Two 70 IQ guys.

Odds of scrubbing a violent crime scene and leaving little to no DNA or blood that experts cannot find? 50,000 to 1.

Odds of having access to a car crushing machine that could literally crush most of the evidence but instead leaving car at end of lot covered by some branches? 1 in 50,000.

Think of probability of anybody else trying to anonymously get away with crushing a car? No chance you could take a car that is not registered to you and have it secretly disposed. You would have to pay someone off a ton of money and then once they found out it is a murdered victim, good luck keeping that secret.

Did the prosecution make the case that the crime scene was scrubbed or did they just not address that? If it was scrubbed, wouldn't there be tons of towels and bleach bought somewhere? How was there not splatter all over the trailer considering multiple gun shots to the head?

It is not enough evidence to say he didn't do it, but it seems it raises substantial doubt and there needs to be a lot more conclusive evidence. The "confession" carries zero weight. If you want to go off a just motive, it seems the department/city have more of a motive than Steven. If you want to go off of purely past history between the department/city and Steven, the city comes off significantly worse in their prior encounters, having locked him up for 18 years knowing he may be innocent, and then once maybe finding out, doing nothing about it.

I am not saying he is innocent. It seems the proven beyond a reasonable doubt isn't even close though. So, was there something so damning left out? Or was the confession spun so effectively that it almost brainwashed the jurors. That they were convinced that nobody sane would ever admit to such a heinous crime and therefore it makes the confession legitimate?
01-17-2016 , 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer


1:32:30

He seems less dumb when he tells the truth
Problem with your 'truth' is zero physical evidence backs up Dassey's 'statement' that he and Steven both raped her, stabbed her, cut her throat, cut her hair off, and then choked her; all in Avery's bedroom. If even a little bit of that was true it would have been a forensic orgy in Avery's bedroom. Alas, not a shred of blood, much less hair, DNA, etc. belonging to Halbach.

What's more likely: SA and Dassey were -somehow- able to scrub his room of every shred of forensic evidence of the rape, torture, and mutilation of TH AND then left physically visible drops of blood in her car and left her actual skeleton 20 feet outside the back door of SA's trailer.....OR Dassey is a mentally challenged person who was manipulated into saying anything that got a positive response from his interrogators.

Yep, that's a real hard one.
01-17-2016 , 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by problemeliminator Making a Murderer
It's a bit like women asking me about men being dicks-not being a woman I don't have any experience with that. If Americans are telling Euros that the US is the best country in the world than they are asses, obviously(I mean directly, politicians trying to drum up votes don't count). ****ting on something else's country or saying your homeland is better than theirs is not something that socially aware well-adjusted people do.
If someone wants to talk about how their country is the best in the world, great, I'm glad they love their country. If they're going to **** on some other country, I'm going to talk about the **** in their country and, if they were ****ting on the USA, then GD USA#1!!!
01-17-2016 , 02:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer


1:32:30

He seems less dumb when he tells the truth
Thanks for the link and the time location.

I'm really trying to stay objective, I promise I am. I just see more of the exact same thing. I'll probably be sh*t on for this but I just can't stop laughing when I watch the interview and read these. Obviously it's tragic what happened to both Brendan and Teresa, but the ridiculousness of this "confession" and the fact that it was admitted at all is just hilarious.





01-17-2016 , 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnutt Making a Murderer
Two 70 IQ guys.

Odds of scrubbing a violent crime scene and leaving little to no DNA or blood that experts cannot find? 50,000 to 1.

Odds of having access to a car crushing machine that could literally crush most of the evidence but instead leaving car at end of lot covered by some branches? 1 in 50,000.
Would putting a car with lots of blood in the back into a crush magically make all the blood go away? It could possibly create more problems and things that couldn't be easily cleaned or burned. SA may have just been waiting for a good chance to scrub the car and destroy it. It's possible he had to slink around to do this out of the view of his family and there just wasn't an opportunity.

I'm also a big fan of the theory that the cops or search party trespassed on their property and searched until they found the car. This is when that one cop called in and asked to confirm the plate&make of the car. They took the key out SA couldn't move it & it spooked the hell out of him when he went to move the car. He was in such a panicked state that he didn't realize he got blood on the car from his finger (which was obviously cut in the exact place you'd expect to deposit that blood there). Brendan talks about how SA was freaking out about the cops being on to him and said something about 'going north'.

I don't think Brendan gave a 100% honest confession. For all we know after raping her they drove her to the quarry but Brendan never mentioned this because in his mind he was more innocent by not leaving his home. He does this later when he lies about not going with SA to park the car, then later admits to it and has details like SA going under the hood of the car.

Right after confessing he asks his mom what happens if SA's story doesn't match his. The tv show paints this like the guy was somehow tricked into confessing a crime he didn't commit and this question was somehow a cryptic way for him to say he didn't actually do the things he just told the cops about for 3 hours. This is nonsense. In Brendans mind he was going to get a few years in juve because it was his uncle's idea and he was just going along with it.

And for people saying it's ludicrous that he didn't crush the car... maybe. But if those women weren't allowed on the property to look around, it's likely he would have gotten away with it. Unless the cops would have planted evidence somewhere so they could get another look at the house, maybe checked for DNA in the car crusher etc.
01-17-2016 , 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnutt Making a Murderer
Two 70 IQ guys.

Odds of scrubbing a violent crime scene and leaving little to no DNA or blood that experts cannot find? 50,000 to 1.

Odds of having access to a car crushing machine that could literally crush most of the evidence but instead leaving car at end of lot covered by some branches? 1 in 50,000.

Think of probability of anybody else trying to anonymously get away with crushing a car? No chance you could take a car that is not registered to you and have it secretly disposed. You would have to pay someone off a ton of money and then once they found out it is a murdered victim, good luck keeping that secret.

Did the prosecution make the case that the crime scene was scrubbed or did they just not address that? If it was scrubbed, wouldn't there be tons of towels and bleach bought somewhere? How was there not splatter all over the trailer considering multiple gun shots to the head?

It is not enough evidence to say he didn't do it, but it seems it raises substantial doubt and there needs to be a lot more conclusive evidence. The "confession" carries zero weight. If you want to go off a just motive, it seems the department/city have more of a motive than Steven. If you want to go off of purely past history between the department/city and Steven, the city comes off significantly worse in their prior encounters, having locked him up for 18 years knowing he may be innocent, and then once maybe finding out, doing nothing about it.

I am not saying he is innocent. It seems the proven beyond a reasonable doubt isn't even close though. So, was there something so damning left out? Or was the confession spun so effectively that it almost brainwashed the jurors. That they were convinced that nobody sane would ever admit to such a heinous crime and therefore it makes the confession legitimate?
Welcome to camp saus. I too am playing the probabilities game. Looks like we could parlay your bet into about 1/2.5 billion chance that this crime happened like the state suggests. While those odds are not enough to convince "Gene" Kusch or Sheriff "better-off-dead" Peterson, you've got my vote!

Quote:
bleach bought somewhere
What the documentary didn't show you:

Spoiler:
Prosecution: Brendan had a bleach stain on his jeans.
01-17-2016 , 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ligastar Making a Murderer
Just binge-watched the first 9 episodes over the past few days:

I just finished Episode 9 which primarily covers Brendan's trial. The first thing that struck me is that his defense team was weaker than Steven's defense team.

A huge error by Brendan's defense team not to show the entire 4 hour interrogation, thus the jury didn't see the part where he told his mom "they (the detectives) got in my head." A bunch of this interrogation was shown in an earlier episode, including a minute, two, or three of Brendan talking to his mom. That was some critical footage for the defense. Also, the defense team should have put Brendan's mom on the stand to refute the detective's claim that she was asked if she wanted to be present for Brendan's interrogation.

What are everyone's thoughts on the defense allowing Brendan to take the stand? I thought Criminal Law 101 was never let the defendant take the stand.

During Episode 9, they showed the drawing and written confession from Brendan. Do we know if the jury saw the video from when the drawing and confession occurred (this video was shown in an earlier episode). If not, Brendan's legal team really f'kd Brendan. Also, I know it wasn't all of the closing argument, but the part they showed for the defense was weak as ****.

I feel sad when people don't understand the significance of a Miranda warning and that they should NEVER speak to law enforcement without legal representation.

Lastly, there is a law related podcast called Reasonable Doubt. This week's episode will include a discussion with Dean Strang (one of Steven's lawyers).
Brendan pretty much had to take the stand. The entire case against him is his own confession.
01-17-2016 , 03:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer

I'm also a big fan of the theory that the cops or search party trespassed on their property and searched until they found the car. This is when that one cop called in and asked to confirm the plate&make of the car. They took the key out SA couldn't move it & it spooked the hell out of him when he went to move the car. He was in such a panicked state that he didn't realize he got blood on the car from his finger (which was obviously cut in the exact place you'd expect to deposit that blood there). Brendan talks about how SA was freaking out about the cops being on to him and said something about 'going north'.
That's a good post/point and seems reasonable.

If I was SA, I wouldn't have used the crusher either. That just makes it impossible to ever get rid of the car.
01-17-2016 , 03:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer
Would putting a car with lots of blood in the back into a crush magically make all the blood go away? It could possibly create more problems and things that couldn't be easily cleaned or burned. SA may have just been waiting for a good chance to scrub the car and destroy it. It's possible he had to slink around to do this out of the view of his family and there just wasn't an opportunity.
K. Also, remember, he had to binge watch all seasons of Dexter in order to clean the crimes scene so well, so your story makes sense. He just didn't have time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer
I'm also a big fan of the theory that the cops or search party trespassed on their property and searched until they found the car.
And what a search it was! It took what, all of 20 minutes? You can do amazing things when god's leading the way. The private investigator who found the car also reported a different version of her own story years earlier.

Quote:
This is when that one cop called in and asked to confirm the plate&make of the car. They took the key out SA couldn't move it & it spooked the hell out of him when he went to move the car.
Makes sense. Girl is missing, here's her car. I'm just gonna remove the key and come back later. Who cares if she's still alive, right? We have a long history of allowing known criminals to continue to harm victims, but as long as we get the white trash gene pool in jail, then our sworn duty is upheld. Shout's to my boy G. Allen in the pen.

Seriously though, there is no good reason for Colborn seeing these plates and calling it in without knowing that Teresa Halbach is already dead.

Quote:
He was in such a panicked state that he didn't realize he got blood on the car from his finger (which was obviously cut in the exact place you'd expect to deposit that blood there). Brendan talks about how SA was freaking out about the cops being on to him and said something about 'going north'.
Was this before or after, or in between completely calm and relaxed phone calls to his fiancee where he talks about proposing to her with rose petals on the bed, romantic dinners when she gets out, blah blah blah.

Quote:
I don't think Brendan gave a 100% honest confession. For all we know after raping her they drove her to the quarry but Brendan never mentioned this because in his mind he was more innocent by not leaving his home.
Makes sense. Let's hurry and get these bones back into the barrel so I can take them home and drop them 20 feet from my front door where NO ONE will ever find them. This, along with my incredible crime scene cleaning skills will ensure I am never caught. It's too bad the 6-8 people I invited to the bonfire after I raped, murdered and mutilated her couldn't show up. They could have helped and I'd probably have time to crush that car.

Quote:
He does this later when he lies about not going with SA to park the car, then later admits to it and has details like SA going under the hood of the car.
LOL. I wont attempt a sarcastic anecdote for this one because Brendan's "confession" is stupid enough. It should be noted though that the DNA under the hood has been thoroughly debunked already. I know you're a lil' late to the party so I'll let it slide.

Quote:
In Brendans mind he was going to get a few years in juve because it was his uncle's idea and he was just going along with it.
And his sentence would commence right after WrestleMania XXIII.

Quote:
And for people saying it's ludicrous that he didn't crush the car... maybe.
Yeah I mean, it's got a branch on top, who could ever find it? No one's gonna be looking for some girl from Auto-Trader that I phone ordered. Well, off to my family retreat, I'll get to this car crushing when I get back.

Last edited by lostinthesaus; 01-17-2016 at 03:50 AM.
01-17-2016 , 03:48 AM
Brendan recalls the horrific motive building in Steven Avery. The devil himself couldn't be worse.



Monster.
01-17-2016 , 03:58 AM
Doubt anyone cares, but this is by far the most words BD strings together in all of the recorded "confessions". It has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

THIS is BD telling the truth.

01-17-2016 , 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Doubt anyone cares, but this is by far the most words BD strings together in all of the recorded "confessions". It has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

THIS is BD telling the truth.
Yes, he's a normal human being who wouldn't be hypnotized into confessing fabricated details about a murder he didn't commit.

When he's talking about things he feels ashamed of, he slows down. When he's talking about things he knows he's in trouble for, he slows down even more. When he's outright lying he barely speaks more than 1 word at a time.

I really do understand where you and others are coming from. I felt the same way when watching the documentary and can understand how a child or ******ed person could confess to a crime they didn't commit. But this kid was just dumb. His screename online was something like 'NIGER 4 lyfe'. He wasn't out of touch with reality enough to confess to a crime he didn't commit. He was out of touch with reality enough to confess to a rape & murder unaware of how much trouble he was really in. He also did have a conscious and realized within a few weeks how badly he ****ed up. He partially confessed to his cousin when she asked why he was sad. The cops repeatedly told him the only way to feel better was to just spill the beans and he did.
01-17-2016 , 04:11 AM
fruit snacks: so you are gonna answer my question about how 'confessing' to the most heinous aspects (rape, torture, throat-slitting) that we know didn't happen the way he said if at all fit in with your theory that he started denying everything, then admitted more and more and what we had at the end was the truth? If so, what was his motivation for the most horrible aspects of his confession being false
?

Quote:
hypnotized into confessing fabricated details about a murder he didn't commit.
BUT HE DID! Everyone knows that there wasn't a brutal torture/stabbing in the trailer, yet he 'confessed' to exactly that.

Last edited by problemeliminator; 01-17-2016 at 04:16 AM.
01-17-2016 , 04:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Brendan recalls the horrific motive building in Steven Avery.
He said SA was 'P'd off at her' for whatever reason. TH told her boss at one point that SA answered the door wearing nothing but a towel. It's likely she reacted strangely and telegraphed her disinterest in him sexually in the way woman do so they don't receive unwanted sexual advances. She probably P'd him off.
01-17-2016 , 05:04 AM
come on m8

First of all he said he stabbed her in the garage and it was unclear if they shot her by the fire or in the garage. We only need a failure rate of the forensics tests to be lower than the probability of other ridiculous claims. Even if they did find a drop of blood from the girl in the garage... you'd just say the cops put it there or outright lied. It's not like they didn't have access.

Again, I'm arguing about what actually happened, not reasonable doubt or what should be admissible. I think Brendans guilty because he confessed, his body language, the conversations he had with his mom after confessing, the fact that he told his cousin he saw body parts etc. It's just too in your face to avoid when looking at actual primary sources and not dramatized select clips put to a soundtrack.
01-17-2016 , 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer
He said SA was 'P'd off at her' for whatever reason.
Were does it say that he was pissed of at TH? Because in that text a couple posts back he says "Cuz he was pissed off about Jodi being in jail.........."
01-17-2016 , 05:25 AM
He says it at some point in the 3 hour interview. He says it unprompted but then kind of recants it and goes off in another direction. He also says steve said she was pretty, which is probably the only motivation needed to rape her.
01-17-2016 , 06:16 AM
Confession is not even an appropriate word for this. We need something that succicently sums up one party promising to help a second party if the second party lies about a given subject, to subject one's satisfaction.

I have tried a variety of words like extortion, coercion and the like but none of them fit what happened here. Confession doesn't fit by any means.
01-17-2016 , 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer
come on m8

First of all he said he stabbed her in the garage and it was unclear if they shot her by the fire or in the garage. We only need a failure rate of the forensics tests to be lower than the probability of other ridiculous claims. Even if they did find a drop of blood from the girl in the garage... you'd just say the cops put it there or outright lied. It's not like they didn't have access.

Again, I'm arguing about what actually happened, not reasonable doubt or what should be admissible. I think Brendans guilty because he confessed, his body language, the conversations he had with his mom after confessing, the fact that he told his cousin he saw body parts etc. It's just too in your face to avoid when looking at actual primary sources and not dramatized select clips put to a soundtrack.

Weird that he drew a picture and described her being shackled to the bed and said THAT was where he stabbed her.

Don't tell me what I would or wouldn't argue in hypothetical scenarios, and don't lump me in with other people ITT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fruit snacks Making a Murderer
He says it at some point in the 3 hour interview. He says it unprompted but then kind of recants it and goes off in another direction. He also says steve said she was pretty, which is probably the only motivation needed to rape her.
Rape has little/nothing to do with attractiveness. It's not about that at all.

      
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