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Making a Murderer Making a Murderer

01-15-2016 , 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski Making a Murderer
There is also no dispute he ran his cousin (or some relative) off the road and pointed a gun at her.

To me, that alone tells enough about SA (and I think the film makers would agree). He is inept at "adult" conflict resolution and his typical reaction to events is to threaten violence.

So, I don't agree the film makers were trying to be sneaky by hiding something as that particular incident was dealt with. The point was made (perhaps because the "background" appears early in a 10 hour doc. that those simple background facts get buried in the rest of the story).

I don't think there should be a disagreement over the basic character of SA. The facts from the doc. alone reveal he is an unsavory character.
Do they?

Larry Conrad (detective): Steve, I'd like to ask you if you would explain in your own words exactly what happened.
Steven: It was 4:30, quarter to 5, and I let the dog out and started up the cars to warm them up and... I seen her come by and then I went down the road and I just pulled alongside of her. And then we hit and she went into a little skid.
Conrad: Did she ever go down into the ditch?
Steven: No.
Conrad: OK, once she stopped her car, what was the next thing you did? Steven: I got out, and I grabbed a gun and she asked me what I was doing.
Conrad: Was your gun loaded?
Steven: No, it was empty. The shells were at home.
Conrad: And you know Sandy Morris personally? Is she a relative of yours?
Steven: Yeah.
Conrad: Steve, can you tell me in your own words why you ran Sandy off the road and pointed a gun at her? Steven: Because she was spreading rumors that I was on the front lawn and on the road, bare ass, and she was telling everybody about it and it wasn't true.
Conrad: Was this bothering you?
Steven: Yeah.
Conrad: Did you feel by taking the type of action you did earlier today that this would stop the problem?
Steven: I was hoping, yeah.

Evans: Steven's actions didn't get what he was hoping. Sandy Morris happened to be married to a Manitowoc County sheriff's deputy.

-------------------------------------

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Sandra Morris (Steven's cousin): Yes.
Kelly: Ma'am, I'm gonna show you a report about Steven Avery, indecent exposure. It indicates that there was a complaint received September 20th, 1984. It says that "he has been known to m*st*rb*t* on the hood of the car as she's driving past." Do you see that?
Morris: Yes.
Kelly: Did you tell that to the police?
Morris: Um... I didn't put it in that many words. I didn't... He didn't m*st*rb*t* on the hood of my car, but he did come out in front of my car and he was... doing his thing. [gestures suggestive of masterbating movement or similar, nodding and smiling.]
Kelly: This is why you're driving 40 miles an hour by his house?
Morris: He did... He did run out towards the road. He was prepared. He had it all ready.
Kelly: OK. It then says "he has had sexual relations with his wife out on the lawn..."
Morris: That, I have nothing...
Kelly: Let me just finish the question. ...while all the neighbors are home in the daytime and able to watch.
Morris: That, I didn't say at all.
Kelly: OK. Do you have any explanation for why whoever is writing this might say that you said that?
Morris: I don't know.
Kelly: OK. Was there a period where you were spending time in a nearby tavern and talking about Steven Avery?
Morris: I might've. [Sandra laughs] I might've went to several taverns.
Kelly: All right... In 1985, were you personally friendly with Steven Avery? Morris: No.
Kelly: In fact, you actively disliked him. Is that right? At that time.
Morris: Yes.

Point of interest here: Her exact accusations match with remarkable similarity the very reason that Gregory Allen was under surveillance at the time.

Greisbach: I started leafing through Denis Vogel's file on Avery and I come across a criminal complaint. "State of Wisconsin v. Gregory Allen" in the Avery file, which didn't make a lot of sense. It was a charge of lewd and lascivious behavior. He had dropped his shorts, he exposed himself and he lunged at this woman. And it was the same basic section of the beach where Penny Beerntsen was assaulted two... two years later. Um, and I looked at which prosecutor had prosecuted Gregory Allen earlier, and it was Denis Vogel. That was evidence that at least made it possible that the DA and the sheriff either knew or should have known that Steven Avery was not the assailant. And not only that, we believe there was the potential that they knew, in fact, who the assailant was, but continued with the prosecution.
01-15-2016 , 08:11 PM
What's your point really? Kelly lied and talked **** about SA, okay. That justifies running her off the road and pointing a gun at her? Ok.

I think we just have a complete different definition of ass.hole.
01-15-2016 , 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggetje Making a Murderer
Right, because they can't both be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayoffWiz Making a Murderer
It's not an either or. The two aren't mutually exclusive. The Sheriff, Kratz, Unsavory Avery, and many others can all be terrible people all at once.
I agree with both of you on this.

But this is why it's so compelling for me. At the core of this there is a single truth, Steven Avery killed Teresa Halbach or Steven Avery did NOT kill Teresa Halbach. It's black and white, true or false, yes or no. There's no gray area about it.

The documentary shows from many angles how the effects of media and character assassination, rumors, exaggerations and lies resulted in him being wrongly imprisoned the first time and how they could have affected the outcome of the second trial for Steven Avery and a 16 year old minor.

In the incredibly short span of his life that he was allowed to be a member of society, the documentary portrays Steven as a decent human being IMO. I don't know how you watched the same thing I did and took away from it that he's a POS?

So what's compelling is that you and I watched the same thing and you saw entirely opposite of what I did, which is exactly the same thing I can say about both juries.

Last edited by lostinthesaus; 01-15-2016 at 08:38 PM.
01-15-2016 , 08:53 PM
After watching the series twice and following the discussion on the Internet for a few weeks I have concluded my thoughts to;

I believe there is a decent chance SA and Brendan had involvement in the murder. I don't think there was some massive conspiracy with local police, multiple parties, fbi etc, but I do believe there might have been some unlawful police intervention.

More importantly, I definitely don't think there is without a doubt proof that they were involved based off the evidence presented. The story doesn't completely add up for numerous reasons and there are too many missing holes. I also don't buy Brendan's I was talked into confessing a fake story bit either. After watching the full 4 hour video (the one taken from the school), he is definitely more competent than the documentary makes you believe. The documentary makes it appear that he can only speak about 4-5 words a minute and drolls on him self. Watch the full video and you will see the difference.

With that said I would have probably voted not guilty, basically by default because there wasn't enough evidence to convince me 100% and there were too many unanswered questions and facts about the case. Even though, my actual gut is definitely leaning towards guilty.

^^ exact reason for a flawed judicial system?
01-15-2016 , 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggetje Making a Murderer
What's your point really? Kelly lied and talked **** about SA, okay. That justifies running her off the road and pointing a gun at her? Ok.

I think we just have a complete different definition of ass.hole.
It was an ass.hole move and the incorrect response. The story has also been exaggerated and the person originating the story contradicts her own statements from the police reports and seems dishonest when recounting the events.

Quote:
She was pretty, beautiful, that's what I thought. She had a good head on her shoulders. She was making it on her own. And she had Jason. Jason was just a baby. And she told me that his father didn't want nothing to do with him. So, I says, "I'll take over, then." Family's partway made. So I'm like, "Well, I might as well give it a shot." July 24, 1982, a judge married us. Then after that, her ma and dad threw a little wedding party there in the garage. From there, the kids. Rachel was born. I didn't see her born because I was locked up for that cat incident. It kinda sucked. You know, you're supposed to be bringing your kid into the world... and then you gotta miss it. And then Jenny, I seen Jenny born. I think I had a... a good life.
Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.o...?f=524&t=24352
It's just not believable to me that this guy is anywhere near the bad human being that some are trying to make him out to be.
01-15-2016 , 09:25 PM
Using his own statements as proof of him being a good person is crazily stupid.
01-15-2016 , 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by problemeliminator Making a Murderer
Using his own statements as proof of him being a good person is crazily stupid.
First: "It's just not believable to me" does not = "Here's proof!"

Second: Why not? Especially if those statements contain actual facts that make him seem like a decent person.

Third: Yet the statements of men who put him in jail for 18 years while they likely knew the real rapist was on the streets can be used to make him look like a bad person?
01-15-2016 , 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Do they?

Larry Conrad (detective): Steve, I'd like to ask you if you would explain in your own words exactly what happened.
Steven: It was 4:30, quarter to 5, and I let the dog out and started up the cars to warm them up and... I seen her come by and then I went down the road and I just pulled alongside of her. And then we hit and she went into a little skid.
Conrad: Did she ever go down into the ditch?
Steven: No.
Conrad: OK, once she stopped her car, what was the next thing you did? Steven: I got out, and I grabbed a gun and she asked me what I was doing.
Conrad: Was your gun loaded?
Steven: No, it was empty. The shells were at home.
Conrad: And you know Sandy Morris personally? Is she a relative of yours?
Steven: Yeah.
Conrad: Steve, can you tell me in your own words why you ran Sandy off the road and pointed a gun at her? Steven: Because she was spreading rumors that I was on the front lawn and on the road, bare ass, and she was telling everybody about it and it wasn't true.
Conrad: Was this bothering you?
Steven: Yeah.
Conrad: Did you feel by taking the type of action you did earlier today that this would stop the problem?
Steven: I was hoping, yeah.

Evans: Steven's actions didn't get what he was hoping. Sandy Morris happened to be married to a Manitowoc County sheriff's deputy.

-------------------------------------

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Sandra Morris (Steven's cousin): Yes.
Kelly: Ma'am, I'm gonna show you a report about Steven Avery, indecent exposure. It indicates that there was a complaint received September 20th, 1984. It says that "he has been known to m*st*rb*t* on the hood of the car as she's driving past." Do you see that?
Morris: Yes.
Kelly: Did you tell that to the police?
Morris: Um... I didn't put it in that many words. I didn't... He didn't m*st*rb*t* on the hood of my car, but he did come out in front of my car and he was... doing his thing. [gestures suggestive of masterbating movement or similar, nodding and smiling.]
Kelly: This is why you're driving 40 miles an hour by his house?
Morris: He did... He did run out towards the road. He was prepared. He had it all ready.
Kelly: OK. It then says "he has had sexual relations with his wife out on the lawn..."
Morris: That, I have nothing...
Kelly: Let me just finish the question. ...while all the neighbors are home in the daytime and able to watch.
Morris: That, I didn't say at all.
Kelly: OK. Do you have any explanation for why whoever is writing this might say that you said that?
Morris: I don't know.
Kelly: OK. Was there a period where you were spending time in a nearby tavern and talking about Steven Avery?
Morris: I might've. [Sandra laughs] I might've went to several taverns.
Kelly: All right... In 1985, were you personally friendly with Steven Avery? Morris: No.
Kelly: In fact, you actively disliked him. Is that right? At that time.
Morris: Yes.

Point of interest here: Her exact accusations match with remarkable similarity the very reason that Gregory Allen was under surveillance at the time.

Greisbach: I started leafing through Denis Vogel's file on Avery and I come across a criminal complaint. "State of Wisconsin v. Gregory Allen" in the Avery file, which didn't make a lot of sense. It was a charge of lewd and lascivious behavior. He had dropped his shorts, he exposed himself and he lunged at this woman. And it was the same basic section of the beach where Penny Beerntsen was assaulted two... two years later. Um, and I looked at which prosecutor had prosecuted Gregory Allen earlier, and it was Denis Vogel. That was evidence that at least made it possible that the DA and the sheriff either knew or should have known that Steven Avery was not the assailant. And not only that, we believe there was the potential that they knew, in fact, who the assailant was, but continued with the prosecution.
Sauce: I think you are conflating two things: SA's general character and feeling sympathetic towards some factors beyond his control that may have explained some of the things he did.

I am sympathetic towards SA, yet, I believe the things he DID do not exactly show him to be of good character. I appreciate that SA reacted to his cousin based on his belief that she was spreading terrible and untrue rumors about him - but all the same, he did run her off the road and pull a gun on her.

That is not how well-adjusted adults handle these things.

Now we all know SA is a regular Joe with below-average intelligence and life did not exactly deal him a great hand. We got it. He was unjustly convicted of the rape and lost 18 years of life - totally unfair. We got it.

However, this is not just some harmless dude whistling on his way down to the fishing pond. It has been shown he is prone to violence when in confrontational situations.

Of course, that does not prove anything towards him killing Theresa, but as many here point out, trying to defend SA's character (as opposed to showing him sympathy) is a losing battle.
01-15-2016 , 09:58 PM
you would have to be delusional to say SA's general character was good even after watching a very bias documentary.
01-15-2016 , 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RU18LOL Making a Murderer
you would have to be delusional to say SA's general character was good even after watching a very bias documentary.
Well, can I get a for instance?
01-15-2016 , 10:37 PM
I don't think the outraged people are outraged out of love for SA, but because the cops and protectors are so horrible and yet, almost certainly, far from unique.
01-15-2016 , 10:42 PM
I am surprised that people think 18 years behind jail would make Steven Avery a smarter person. It's definitely possible, but if it turns out to be that way on average, we need to rethink our whole education system.
01-15-2016 , 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Well, can I get a for instance?
Yeah. He threw a ****ing cat in the fire.

I like your posts and you seem very reasonable. On this issue you are overplaying your hand and it diminishes your otherwise good contributions to the discussion (it makes you seem like a total homer).
01-15-2016 , 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyRavishing Making a Murderer
I am surprised that people think 18 years behind jail would make Steven Avery a smarter person. It's definitely possible, but if it turns out to be that way on average, we need to rethink our whole education system.
A guy I worked with spent 5 1/2 years in prison. He read a lot in there. ****ty novels, but it was something. Without prison he may well have not read a book as an adult.

Anecdote aside, a lot of dropouts finish HS and do some college or vocational training in prison.
01-15-2016 , 10:53 PM
Even with Steven having funding to pay for lawyers, it looks like they skimped on hiring expert witnesses. For example, the blood near the ignition in the car raises a lot of questions. How does it get smeared that way, and how does it even get there to begin with. Also, how old was the cut on his finger. They showed it in a photograph, and it looked fairly old to me although I'm no expert.
01-15-2016 , 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyRavishing Making a Murderer
Even with Steven having funding to pay for lawyers, it looks like they skimped on hiring expert witnesses. For example, the blood near the ignition in the car raises a lot of questions. How does it get smeared that way, and how does it even get there to begin with. Also, how old was the cut on his finger. They showed it in a photograph, and it looked fairly old to me although I'm no expert.
Good point.

However, given the circumstances, do you think it really would have made any difference?
01-15-2016 , 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet Making a Murderer
A guy I worked with spent 5 1/2 years in prison. He read a lot in there. ****ty novels, but it was something. Without prison he may well have not read a book as an adult.

Anecdote aside, a lot of dropouts finish HS and do some college or vocational training in prison.

I understand that. In the end though, I'd take a chess match, I'd take a 17 year old Avery over a 17 year old Dassey any day of the week. Steven kind of seemed like your everyday not so clever guy, whereas I can't really recall ever knowing anyone that seemed so cognitively challenged as he came across... Even Mike Tyson who is supposed to have an IQ in that neighborhood, still comes across as being a lot more alert and aware of his surroundings.

My point though with this is that I think it's very possible that Brendan's IQ is well south of 70. I guess it's not so relevant to the case, but if the state has incentive to not want to bother with special accommodations if 70 is the cutoff point (think Forrest Gump), it seems to bring even further support to the fact he just has no clue what is going on in the world around him.
01-15-2016 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski Making a Murderer
Yeah. He threw a ****ing cat in the fire.

I like your posts and you seem very reasonable. On this issue you are overplaying your hand and it diminishes your otherwise good contributions to the discussion (it makes you seem like a total homer).
Well, I think you're missing a large part of the point. Or at least, a large part of what I consider to be an important point of this documentary. That SA was nowhere near the person the media and Law Enforcement made him out to be. He was an every-day-Joe-the salvage-yard-worker, that you and I were supposed to identify to some degree with, and was targeted by authorities and has been unable to do anything about it due to his social class level. He made some mistakes in his past, yes, just like you and I have, but that shouldn't make him a POS to society, law enforcement, the media and most importantly, the jury(ies).

His character was completely assassinated by the media and thus he was not able to have a fair trial. It is not fair to him for an undecided juror to go into deliberations believing that he:

Quote:
threw a ****ing cat in the fire.
This is not the truth, nor is it what he was convicted of.

It is not fair for him for any juror to sit on this panel that believes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendan's Defense
"Steve Avery needs to be removed from society."
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggetje Making a Murderer
If you write letters threatening people left and right, you're an *******.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggetje Making a Murderer
like him beating his wife occasionally and being an all around *******
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeraz Making a Murderer
This isn't some happy go lucky kid. He's an admitted burglar and thief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterson
if he is acquitted he will murder someone else in the future
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngerPush Making a Murderer
Some ppl are just born POS
Quote:
The facts from the doc. alone reveal he is an unsavory character
That's from this page alone. And all of it is either not true, exaggerated, or unproven. I'm pretty surprised that anyone saw this in the doc. So you're telling me you saw through the biased director's attempts to make you like Steve Avery and have concluded that he is in fact a POS, or the doc actually wasn't biased and based on the documentary, he's a POS?

Thankfully, my considerations have no bearing on anything that might happen in the future for SA or BD. But if they did, and I tried to take the most unbiased approach possible in order to make sure I am not re-releasing a murderer who will kill again, I'd listen to all his phone calls and read every police report and hear all the testimony from those who are against him and those who are with him. I'd have to discredit anyone who tells me conflicting pieces of information because some, or all, of that information will be false. I'd have to consider motives and interests. And I'd have to consider most importantly the facts, disregarding all bias, prejudice, rumor and feeling.

In the end, I think, I'd be left with a picture of exactly what I said in the beginning:

He was an every-day-Joe-the salvage-yard-worker and was unfairly targeted by authorities (in both instances) and has been unable to do anything about it due to his social class level. He made some mistakes in his past, yes, just like you and I have, but that doesn't make him a POS to society, law enforcement, the media and most importantly, the jury(ies).

Last edited by lostinthesaus; 01-15-2016 at 11:54 PM.
01-15-2016 , 11:41 PM
Sauce. the issue is "who is Steve Avery and what is his general character?" The issue is not how he was treated in the media and portrayed at trial.

You know that. We have been discussing the former point all along and now you are trying to shift it to the latter.

I have explained quite well the issue with his character and you damn well know I am not saying "He threw a cat in the fire and therefore he killed Teresa."

I am saying his prior acts show he is prone to violence - more than a normal well adjusted adult.
01-15-2016 , 11:56 PM
I think if SA did it, it shows the impact of being in prison for 18 years with rapists and murderers.
01-16-2016 , 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Do you realize this this type of thought is exactly what leads not only to totally innocent people winding up in jail, but also to the attempted genocide of entire races of human beings?

Nothing further your honor.
Nah, my point is you're thinking too hard about it when you said "when is he supposed to turn into a POS"

My general sentiment is people are who they are for the most part.
01-16-2016 , 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiSash1337 Making a Murderer
Ehh we don't even know if she was actually raped, they only found bones and no DNA. Afaik the rapeaccusations were only based on Brendans confession, rape and murder puts a much more horrific picture in your head than just murder.
We don't know this of course, but from my perspective there's really only 2 reasons she'd be killed

1) to first rape to satisfy some sexual need, then kill



2) accidental death, then covered up. (ie. Scott/Bobby accidental hunting killing)

I think 1 is far more likely than 2.

I guess there's a 3rd if it was from family member/ex: argument/jealousy/insurance money


Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet Making a Murderer
Anecdote aside, a lot of dropouts finish HS and do some college or vocational training in prison.
Brendan got his hs diploma and read all Harry Potter. Guarantee he's being more educated in prison than in real life playing video games and watching wrestlemania
01-16-2016 , 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski Making a Murderer
Sauce. the issue is "who is Steve Avery and what is his general character?" The issue is not how he was treated in the media and portrayed at trial.
Well, I disagree. This actually is the exact issue when the method to determine "who is Steve Avery and what is his general character?" is by what we have seen in the media and how he was portrayed at trial.

Last edited by lostinthesaus; 01-16-2016 at 12:50 AM.
01-16-2016 , 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski
I have explained quite well the issue with his character
Well, I don't think you have explained quite well the issue with his character, hence my ramblings above. Additionally, I feel your issues with his character are based largely on how he has been portrayed in the media. That's not a slight to you, it's just all we have at the moment aside from actual documented evidence in the form of TV footage, recorded phone calls, police reports witness testimony.

And from the footage, recorded phone calls, police reports witness testimony, I don't see how anyone could come away thinking he's a POS...unless of course you choose to believe how he has been portrayed in the media as well as unproven allegations, exaggerations and rumors.

Last edited by lostinthesaus; 01-16-2016 at 12:48 AM.
01-16-2016 , 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Well, I don't think you have explained quite well the issue with his character, hence my ramblings above. Additionally, I feel your issues with his character are based largely on how he has been portrayed in the media. That's not a slight to you, it's just all we have at the moment aside from actual documented evidence in the form of TV footage, recorded phone calls, police reports witness testimony.

And from the footage, recorded phone calls, police reports witness testimony, I don't see how anyone could come away thinking he's a POS...unless of course you choose to believe how he has been portrayed in the media.
My opinion is based on the documentary which we all agree is biased in his favor. I have not relied on any fact not represented in the doc.

      
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