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Old 12-25-2015, 12:25 AM   #101
KanyeOfPoker
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Re: Making a Murderer

All I have to say is the lawyers did steal the show and it goes to prove that not all lawyers are lazy pieces of ****
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Old 12-25-2015, 12:39 AM   #102
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Re: Making a Murderer

At the very end, when his laywer said something like:

"I really hope Steven Avery is guilty, because the justice system has failed him horribly here"

That was amazing. You can tell he loses sleep over his clients.
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Old 12-25-2015, 01:46 AM   #103
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by CCuster_911 View Post
At the very end, when his laywer said something like:

"I really hope Steven Avery is guilty, because the justice system has failed him horribly here"

That was amazing. You can tell he loses sleep over his clients.
I am nowhere near the caliber of the defense attorneys in this movie. That being said if you care about your clients and their cases and are a criminal defense attorney you will lose sleep. I cannot fathom how much work these guys put into this case and honestly found myself asking question like how much did their marriages/relationships suffer as a result of it. That is one reason I am transitioning out of doing it. If you care then it is extremely emotionally hard and if you don't care then you know you are just another scumbag fleecing the poor/criminal class.

Now if you really don't care about your clients, have no conscious and just try and plea them out as soon as possible so you don't have to do any real work then I am sure you sleep quite well. That is why ole Len could still have a smile on his face while on the stand late in the doc AND STILL PRACTICE HIS ****TY BRAND OF CRIMINAL DEFENSE TODAY. He doesn't even think he is doing anything wrong while being a complete scumbag. A lot of that is because Len is a lot more normal in the criminal defense bar than the two heros from what I can tell.
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Old 12-25-2015, 05:10 AM   #104
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Re: Making a Murderer

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How are the jean rivets any more incriminating than her actual bones? If the bones were moved so could have been the rivets with them. My biggest question is where is the blood. That garage was a mess filled with all sorts of crap everywhere. There would be blood spatter somewhere that was uncleanable. And if you are so good at cleaning up blood why leave your own in the car you left on your own property as well as a burn pit full of bones. Too inconsistent to be both so professional and amateurish in the covering of tracks.
Yeah.

They mentioned there were remains or something found in both the pit and the burn barrel.

Don't see how finding the rivets is a big deal at all.
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Old 12-25-2015, 10:03 AM   #105
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Re: Making a Murderer

And there were remains found in some quarry that was not on the Avery property. Forgot that in my list but how in the world does that fit the prosecution theory.
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Old 12-25-2015, 12:04 PM   #106
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
I am nowhere near the caliber of the defense attorneys in this movie. That being said if you care about your clients and their cases and are a criminal defense attorney you will lose sleep. I cannot fathom how much work these guys put into this case and honestly found myself asking question like how much did their marriages/relationships suffer as a result of it. That is one reason I am transitioning out of doing it. If you care then it is extremely emotionally hard and if you don't care then you know you are just another scumbag fleecing the poor/criminal class.

Now if you really don't care about your clients, have no conscious and just try and plea them out as soon as possible so you don't have to do any real work then I am sure you sleep quite well. That is why ole Len could still have a smile on his face while on the stand late in the doc AND STILL PRACTICE HIS ****TY BRAND OF CRIMINAL DEFENSE TODAY. He doesn't even think he is doing anything wrong while being a complete scumbag. A lot of that is because Len is a lot more normal in the criminal defense bar than the two heros from what I can tell.
I don't know anything about the legalities of being a defense attorney, but it seems as if some sanctions should of been imposed on Len. What he was doing seemed worse there just incompetence. Didn't seem as though he was looking out for his clients best interests in the least.
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Old 12-25-2015, 03:35 PM   #107
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Re: Making a Murderer

Len is wow bad. How is he still allowed to practice, ridiculous. Railroading a retarded kid unbelievable.
When slow kid asked mom what inconsistent means and mom didn't know really opened my eyes to just how dumb these people are.
Stevens lawyers were captivating.
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Old 12-25-2015, 04:08 PM   #108
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Re: Making a Murderer

Holy **** this was an amazing watch.

The fact this is actually real life is extremely scary. If this was a movie you would be picking some serious holes in the storyline!

Just incredible.
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Old 12-25-2015, 04:10 PM   #109
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Can we agree that Steven's defense attorneys were the stars of the documentary?
Was kinda sad when they weren't around for his appeals etc...

Fantastic double act.
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Old 12-25-2015, 04:26 PM   #110
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Re: Making a Murderer

My main problem is were is all the blood that I would assume there would have been ALOT of if the theory about them slitting her throat etc in SA trailer is true.

Even if this was pretty one sided so even then its superclear it should be reasonable doubt and if I understand correctly the burden of proof is on the State here right? It looked more like the defense was in a spot to "have to" prove stat SA didnt do it.

That Len lawyer was A grade scum and Theresas brother really pissed me of.


EDIT:
Really enjoyed this series and I also binge watched this in a 48H period.
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Old 12-25-2015, 05:31 PM   #111
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Re: Making a Murderer

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If this is the case, how does the bullet fragment end up in the garage?
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Old 12-25-2015, 05:35 PM   #112
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by daddyrnac View Post
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The bullet didn't have her blood on it, it had her dna. The DNA expert said there was no visible blood on the bullet.
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Old 12-25-2015, 06:06 PM   #113
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Re: Making a Murderer

What about the detective (Lenk?) lying about what time he arrived at the car yard at? Lol

First of all he said 6ish? Then it went to 2ish during the trial. I mean wtf, even little details like that have to have had you thinking there was something seriously wrong here.

I've finished watching the series n all but will def read up more on it.
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Old 12-25-2015, 06:10 PM   #114
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by gunner09 View Post
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A lot of times testifying on your behalf in a defense isn't the right move. The requirement of the court is that the prosecution prove you guilty, not that you prove yourself innocent
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Old 12-25-2015, 06:12 PM   #115
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Re: Making a Murderer

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And even more specifically in this case. He 100% poisoned the jury well well before this case started. Him saying anything along the lines of his reputation being ruined is ludicrous
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Old 12-25-2015, 06:22 PM   #116
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by Banned4lyfe View Post
He called in AFTER she was reported missing. Still doesn't make any sense as to why he would call in. Possibly confirming plate #?
He called in Nov 3, the missing report was filed on the 5th I believe
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Old 12-25-2015, 07:24 PM   #117
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Re: Making a Murderer

Missing report was filed on the 3rd, the car was found on the 5th. Still really strange though.
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Old 12-25-2015, 07:35 PM   #118
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Re: Making a Murderer

The evidence points to Steven either being the smartest or dumbest murderer of all time if he did it.
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Old 12-25-2015, 08:32 PM   #119
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by ChiddyBang View Post
Len is wow bad. How is he still allowed to practice, ridiculous. Railroading a retarded kid unbelievable.
As someone else mentioned, this type of "lawyering" is 100% standard for public defenders. You disbar this guy, you have to disbar most of the others.

1.) You probably are bottom 5% talent-wise if you are a career public defender.
2.) The system has to keep grinding, and your workload is impossible. You are measured on closing cases, not on getting acquittals.
3.) It's a small town, and you have to work with the same DAs for decades. Realistically, you are part of THEIR team, playing a kabuki role as a "defense" lawyer.
4.) The vast majority of your clients are guilty morons who have very little chance at trial, and the best you can do is plea them out.
5.) If there's a confession, your job is basically done.

It would take a special sort of person to overcome all of that to help one inbred borderline-retarded kid from a family that everybody hates.

Now... all that said, I still strongly dislike this guy. I'd hope for SOME little spark of responsibility to kick in at SOME point. But it never did. He was going to continue with the kabuki theater no matter what.

And, to be completely fair, the kid WAS convicted, and WOULD have been better off taking the deal, despite the jury seeing the LOL coerced videotaped "confession". It's just the way things are, sadly.

Last edited by BustoPro; 12-25-2015 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 12-25-2015, 08:34 PM   #120
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Re: Making a Murderer

You would think he would tame it down and put in some effort for basically the most media covered case of his entire career.
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Old 12-25-2015, 09:56 PM   #121
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by CCuster_911 View Post
You would think he would tame it down and put in some effort for basically the most media covered case of his entire career.
Yeah, but then he'd have to try to study up on confusing concepts like "innocent until proven guilty" that he'd probably forgetten 20 years ago.
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Old 12-25-2015, 10:00 PM   #122
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Re: Making a Murderer

As far as my take on the whole thing, with the benefit of hindsight it seems like Avery's defense made a huge mistake by focusing so much attention on possible police corruption. (The lawyers themselves said on camera that it was a risky strategy.)

There were so many holes in the case that it seems like they could have just hammered on the shakiness of the whole thing, instead of painting the cops as the bad guys, because that let the prosecution turn around and say "A vote for acquittal is the same as convicting the police of a crime" or however they put it in the closing argument (which isn't true in any case, but probably resonated with the presumably simple people of the jury.)
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Old 12-25-2015, 11:05 PM   #123
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Re: Making a Murderer

I wrote an email to Ken Kratz at kratzlawfirm@gmail.com i was surprised to get a response from him.
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Old 12-25-2015, 11:06 PM   #124
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Re: Making a Murderer

hahaha
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Old 12-25-2015, 11:10 PM   #125
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Re: Making a Murderer

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I wrote an email to Ken Kratz at kratzlawfirm@gmail.com i was surprised to get a response from him.
and?
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