Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Making a Murderer Making a Murderer

09-05-2016 , 10:56 AM
What some of you are accusing the police of is more than just planting evidence, they are essentially staging an entire crime scene in your opinion correct? That pretty crazy considering there was barely time to plan anything.
09-05-2016 , 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkasigh Making a Murderer

Just to clarify, the specific features of the proposed conspiracy that I think make it virtually impossible are:
- it would have been unequivocally a malicious plot to frame someone the police knew to be innocent (as well as cover up the real circumstances of Halbach's death) - such plots are very rare - wrongful convictions happen, but almost always due to errors and tunnel vision, not malice;
They kinda did all of that in 1985

- it would have had to have been launched literally within hours of Halbach being reported missing - it is inconceivable that anyone could have had enough information at this point to know that Avery was a strong candidate for framing (specifically, whether Avery had an alibi, whether witnesses placed Halbach elsewhere that day, whether forensic evidence in the car would come back to someone else);
They controlled what was tested and investigated. I dont think they killed hallbach, but i wouldnt be surprised if they found her dead body saw a connection to avery and ran with it because they were looking for that kind of opportunity

- it would have had to have involved many people as active participants and many more as witnesses who would have seen something amiss - no one has ever come forward;
Some witness came forward and got ignored, and you overstimate the number of active people needed

- there was no conceivable motivation for it - Avery being convicted of another crime wouldn't make his lawsuit against the county disappear, the county had insurance that would have covered a settlement, and none of the people being personally sued were involved in the Halbach case. Even assuming that there was some animosity toward Avery among the police department, it wouldn't have been a strong enough motivation for officers to risk their careers and personal liberty by committing multiple felonies.
You are still assuming that many people were malicious , my guess would be a few malicious and alot of incompetence

I asked for examples of similar conspiracies. I got stuff like the Manhattan project and corrupt DAs abusing their power.

The only one that was vaguely similar was a convicted killer who alleged that the police drenched him in animal blood.

Because you presented this case as if it was a documented case of framing rather than an accused trying a desperate defense, I wondered if maybe you had a prejudice against law enforcement that was causing you to look at things less than objectively. That's why I was asking you if you knew of any cases where the accused alleged framing but was actually guilty - to try to make you aware of this possible prejudice.
Zellner said she had one guilty guy in her career who fooled her and that she's doing her best so it doesnt happen again: could be PR could be true aswell, no one can deny she is super experienced in that matter.

From the beginning most people itt thought that case was at best a case of massive incompetence and at worse some hardcore framing. When the innocence project and zellner took the case and started confirming that yeah the framing looked real, I cannot see how people can justify beeing so sure of avery's guilt and not consider that the framing wasnt that unlikely.

Your analysis lack alot of context, they did it before, people who should have had nothing to do with the new case were major actors in the discovery of some major evidences found in really sketchy ways.
09-05-2016 , 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckproof Making a Murderer
What some of you are accusing the police of is more than just planting evidence, they are essentially staging an entire crime scene in your opinion correct? That pretty crazy considering there was barely time to plan anything.
Doesnt seems that hard to plan if you they had the car a few days before the official discovery, and started to plant stuff where nothing happend while not investigating where the real murder scene was.That kinda limit the risk of conflicting informations

Even people who believe Avery is guilty would have to be ******ed to believe the official story.
09-05-2016 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckproof Making a Murderer
What some of you are accusing the police of is more than just planting evidence, they are essentially staging an entire crime scene in your opinion correct? That pretty crazy considering there was barely time to plan anything.
How much time do you think is required?

If Colburn reported the car on the 3rd and it's not officially 'found' until the 5th, that's a couple of days.

What does your Magic 8 Ball tell you is the time required to decide something?

Police documents show Steven is a suspect in a homicide within a couple of hours after Teresa is reported missing - before her car is even found. Before anyone had any evidence there was a murder. So it looks like these cops are quite capable of making quick decisions.

That's
a pretty crazy things for cops to do when for anyone innocent knows Teresa could pull her RAV4 into the driveway and start telling everyone about the wonderful surprise trip she took to Green Bay.

The Magic Key doesn't appear until the 8th.

Four months later they begin coercing statements from Brendan.

The bullet fragment isn't required until March 2006.
09-05-2016 , 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudfootz Making a Murderer
How much time do you think is required?

If Colburn reported the car on the 3rd and it's not officially 'found' until the 5th, that's a couple of days.

What does your Magic 8 Ball tell you is the time required to decide something?

Police documents show Steven is a suspect in a homicide within a couple of hours after Teresa is reported missing - before her car is even found. Before anyone had any evidence there was a murder. So it looks like these cops are quite capable of making quick decisions.

That's
a pretty crazy things for cops to do when for anyone innocent knows Teresa could pull her RAV4 into the driveway and start telling everyone about the wonderful surprise trip she took to Green Bay.

The Magic Key doesn't appear until the 8th.

Four months later they begin coercing statements from Brendan.

The bullet fragment isn't required until March 2006.
Pff you got fooled by a manipulative documentary.
09-05-2016 , 11:44 AM
I've only skimmed through

Are there people who actually believe the cops had the car 2 days before it was found on the Avery property?
09-05-2016 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddymitchel Making a Murderer
Pff you got fooled by a manipulative documentary.
Even if that were true, much better than being fooled by a drug addicted DA who had to leave his job for raping women who appear in court.

Looking at the rogues gallery of creeps who've lined up to put Brendan and Steven in prison versus the very respectable people who've taken up the cause of keeping them out, I much prefer the company.
09-05-2016 , 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCX Making a Murderer
I've only skimmed through

Are there people who actually believe the cops had the car 2 days before it was found on the Avery property?
There's evidence which indicates the car was 'seized' a couple of days before it was publicly 'found'.
09-05-2016 , 11:54 AM
FFS, the 1985 case was a mistake, not a frame-up. It was the days before DNA testing. Avery was a known violent felon who lived in the area and bore a strong resemblance to the real perpetrator.
09-05-2016 , 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudfootz Making a Murderer
There's evidence which indicates the car was 'seized' a couple of days before it was publicly 'found'.
I'm aware the date was wrong.....

But are there people who actually believe the cops had the car two days before it was found on the Avery property?
09-05-2016 , 11:56 AM
Quote:
They controlled what was tested and investigated. I dont think they killed hallbach, but i wouldnt be surprised if they found her dead body saw a connection to avery and ran with it because they were looking for that kind of opportunity
And your evidence that this happened is the date on an intake form.

Do you see a problem here?
09-05-2016 , 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCX Making a Murderer
I'm aware the date was wrong.....

But are there people who actually believe the cops had the car two days before it was found on the Avery property?
The question is which date is wrong.

In combination with Colburn reporting the license plate on the 3rd, and Steven being listed as a suspect in a homicide on the 3rd, some people might start seeing a pattern.
09-05-2016 , 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkasigh Making a Murderer
FFS, the 1985 case was a mistake, not a frame-up. It was the days before DNA testing. Avery was a known violent felon who lived in the area and bore a strong resemblance to the real perpetrator.
Yes, the resemblance is uncanny!





09-05-2016 , 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudfootz Making a Murderer
Yes, the resemblance is uncanny!





It's like if they coerced the victim deposition to frame avery. I wonder where I saw that before.
09-05-2016 , 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkasigh Making a Murderer
FFS, the 1985 case was a mistake, not a frame-up. It was the days before DNA testing. Avery was a known violent felon who lived in the area and bore a strong resemblance to the real perpetrator.
FYI it was beyond a mistake... There was a concerted effort to make evidence fit him directly with absolute disregard for any other suspects. Not to mention people after he was exonerated STILL BELIEVE HE COMMITTED THE CRIME.

And of course there was the call saying that btw you have the wrong dude which went ignored for 10 years.


Just a mistake though. A mistake with a sketch artist who has only ever drawn one sketch and ****ing framed the goddamn thing.
09-05-2016 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkasigh Making a Murderer
And your evidence that this happened is the date on an intake form.

Do you see a problem here?
A weird phone call that was never explained, a paper confirming what people suspected about that weird phone call, the guy who made the suspicious phone call keep finding key evidence after the fact when nobody is watching him and while he is not allowed to be by himself on the property.
Do you send someone to jail with thoses informations ofc no , do you investigate it seriously definitly.
09-05-2016 , 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeotaJMU Making a Murderer
FYI it was beyond a mistake... There was a concerted effort to make evidence fit him directly with absolute disregard for any other suspects. Not to mention people after he was exonerated STILL BELIEVE HE COMMITTED THE CRIME.

And of course there was the call saying that btw you have the wrong dude which went ignored for 10 years.


Just a mistake though. A mistake with a sketch artist who has only ever drawn one sketch and ****ing framed the goddamn thing.
...then invited the rape/beating victim over to his house to see the sketch that he hung on his wall.
09-05-2016 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkasigh Making a Murderer
Okay, maybe I should go back to where this whole discussion came from. One document in the Avery case seems to show Halbach's car as having been taken into evidence on Nov. 3.

The two theories under discussion were that it was a typo and that the police actually collected the car on Nov. 3, checked it into evidence, checked it out of evidence, planted Avery's blood in it, and planted it on Avery's property. I said that the typo is far more likely because typos are extremely common, while conspiracies like the one proposed are extremely uncommon.

Just to clarify, the specific features of the proposed conspiracy that I think make it virtually impossible are:
- it would have been unequivocally a malicious plot to frame someone the police knew to be innocent (as well as cover up the real circumstances of Halbach's death) - such plots are very rare - wrongful convictions happen, but almost always due to errors and tunnel vision, not malice;
- it would have had to have been launched literally within hours of Halbach being reported missing - it is inconceivable that anyone could have had enough information at this point to know that Avery was a strong candidate for framing (specifically, whether Avery had an alibi, whether witnesses placed Halbach elsewhere that day, whether forensic evidence in the car would come back to someone else);
- it would have had to have involved many people as active participants and many more as witnesses who would have seen something amiss - no one has ever come forward;
- there was no conceivable motivation for it - Avery being convicted of another crime wouldn't make his lawsuit against the county disappear, the county had insurance that would have covered a settlement, and none of the people being personally sued were involved in the Halbach case. Even assuming that there was some animosity toward Avery among the police department, it wouldn't have been a strong enough motivation for officers to risk their careers and personal liberty by committing multiple felonies.

I asked for examples of similar conspiracies. I got stuff like the Manhattan project and corrupt DAs abusing their power.

The only one that was vaguely similar was a convicted killer who alleged that the police drenched him in animal blood.

Because you presented this case as if it was a documented case of framing rather than an accused trying a desperate defense, I wondered if maybe you had a prejudice against law enforcement that was causing you to look at things less than objectively. That's why I was asking you if you knew of any cases where the accused alleged framing but was actually guilty - to try to make you aware of this possible prejudice.
The documentarians didn't set out to make a documentary about every day occurrences. This case is completely unique in many ways. OBVIOUSLY the occurrences that took place are not normal.

However,...

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence both physical and circumstantial that point to a framing, corruption and lies. In fact, when Zellner presents her case and new info comes to light, this will go down as one of most ridiculous investigations that has ever taken place.

You bring up the word "malicious." While malice may be a part of the equation, it is self-preservation that is the dominating factor here. LE's motive to do what has been done to SA is so incredibly obvious, it's amazing it goes completely unacknowledged by the guilters ITT. At the same time, a motive for SA to perpetuate this crime is completely absent and in fact, the motive to NOT commit this crime at watershed moment in his life is evident.

Quote:
- there was no conceivable motivation for it - Avery being convicted of another crime wouldn't make his lawsuit against the county disappear, the county had insurance that would have covered a settlement, and none of the people being personally sued were involved in the Halbach case. Even assuming that there was some animosity toward Avery among the police department, it wouldn't have been a strong enough motivation for officers to risk their careers and personal liberty by committing multiple felonies.
This is utterly false. Your claims here have been thoroughly debunked 8 months ago. I will leave it to you to do your own research on the subject but just consider that SA was arrested for the murder of TH just days before the 2 most important individuals from LE implicated in the 1985 framing and continued, knowing false imprisonment of SA were to be deposed. We will never know the full extent to which LE and certain individuals would have been held accountable and YES, all or some of them had their personal assets and careers at risk. It's just waaaaay too convenient of a time for SA to phone order a murder victim for no apparent reason other than "well, he's a monster." It's like you have convinced yourself of this in order to fill a giant void in this story so that it's okay for LE to do what they've done.
09-05-2016 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeotaJMU Making a Murderer
Not to mention people after he was exonerated STILL BELIEVE HE COMMITTED THE CRIME.

Who are these people you speak of that still believed he committed the crime?
Please provide sources, because I've never seen one person say this.


Whoever these people are, I'm guessing they think the evidence (one pubic hair) was planted or the tests were faked, but of course that's just delusional conspiracy nonsense.
09-05-2016 , 06:15 PM
It's in the documentary that you claim to have watched.
09-05-2016 , 06:43 PM
LAWYER: Well do you take DNA evidence that is done by the State Crime Lab can become the basis for vacating a judgement of conviction of Steven Avery, is that enough for you to know that Steven Avery did not commit this assault?
KUSCHE: No. Where did the evidence come from? That's all I'm asking.
LAWYER: You doubt the DNA examination....
KUSCHE: ...that it was matched? I believe it was a match. Has DNA evidence been fabricated before? Yes.
09-05-2016 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorSkillz Making a Murderer
Who are these people you speak of that still believed he committed the crime?
Please provide sources, because I've never seen one person say this.


Whoever these people are, I'm guessing they think the evidence (one pubic hair) was planted or the tests were faked, but of course that's just delusional conspiracy nonsense.
The cops bro still think he did it or at least claimed to think he did it. Did you even watch the documentary?
09-05-2016 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorSkillz Making a Murderer
Who are these people you speak of that still believed he committed the crime?
Please provide sources, because I've never seen one person say this.


Whoever these people are, I'm guessing they think the evidence (one pubic hair) was planted or the tests were faked, but of course that's just delusional conspiracy nonsense.
And the 20+ eye witness alibis, oh and not to mention an already committed sex offender with no alibi and confirmed in the area and already under surveillance for committing these types of acts to WHOM THE DNA MATCHED!- nonsense.

GTFO.
09-05-2016 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 Making a Murderer
The cops bro still think he did it or at least claimed to think he did it. Did you even watch the documentary?
Look how far you've fallen. Someone is legit asking if you've seen the documentary lololol.
09-05-2016 , 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeotaJMU Making a Murderer
FYI it was beyond a mistake... There was a concerted effort to make evidence fit him directly with absolute disregard for any other suspects. Not to mention people after he was exonerated STILL BELIEVE HE COMMITTED THE CRIME.

And of course there was the call saying that btw you have the wrong dude which went ignored for 10 years.


Just a mistake though. A mistake with a sketch artist who has only ever drawn one sketch and ****ing framed the goddamn thing.
Avery was a known violent criminal and sketchy character who lived in the area and fit the description (and in fact was very similar in appearance to the actual perpetrator). Under the circumstances any police officer would have considered him a strong suspect and looked him up.

In fact, the police involved took it too far and developed tunnel vision. The sketch artist may have drawn the composite with a specific suspect in mind, which is obviously a no no. Not trying to defend anyone's actions here. It was a **** show. Calling it a mistake doesn't excuse anyone. Professional investigators owe it to the public not to make such mistakes.

But at the same time, you even admit that the police BELIEVED HE COMMITTED THE CRIME. That makes it a mistake, not a frame up.

      
m