Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Making a Murderer Making a Murderer

08-23-2016 , 12:47 PM
The only scenario that is not completely insane where Avery is not the actual killer is if someone else in the family did it. They know that he had a bonfire so they burn her body somewhere else on the property after that night and dump it into the pit later on and then wash the key of the car they moved and then rub his jacket onto the key to get his dna on the key. This would explain the key having been scrubbed clean previously. Cockburn finds the key. Then Lenk planted blood in the car unrelated to everything else.

But Avery says he saw her drive away so at some point she needs to stop and get killed before exiting the property.

Last edited by OmgGlutten!; 08-23-2016 at 12:56 PM.
08-23-2016 , 01:38 PM
Both Steven and Brendan said they saw her drive away. There was also a truck driver who reported he saw the vehicle leaving the area. So the last time anyone who's talking saw Teresa she was headed away from the Avery property. We don't know if she returned alive.

Maybe someone else in the family did have some kind of grudge against Steven and framed him - knowing the police would trip all over themselves to focus on the guy.

It's clear the narrative of the coerced Dassey statements aren't accurate- no blood or DNA where Teresa was supposedly gang raped, stabbed, and shot multiple times, etc.

Since we have very good evidence that Steven stayed close to his house, and no real evidence that the murder was committed there, it's pretty obvious Steven Avery had nothing to do with it.

Last edited by proudfootz; 08-23-2016 at 01:55 PM.
08-23-2016 , 01:59 PM
why wasnt the truck driver in doc?
08-23-2016 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmgGlutten! Making a Murderer
why wasnt the truck driver in doc?
Film makers were biased against the defense, obviously.
08-23-2016 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmgGlutten! Making a Murderer
why wasnt the truck driver in doc?
Because he saw an SUV that he thought might have looked like TH's, driving in a direction away from the Avery residence. He didn't see the driver at all and was unsure of the model of the car. Not exactly iron-clad evidence, nor would his testimony be compelling television.

I know Occam's razor doesn't play well with most itt, but seeing as how her car, bones, blood, and keys were found on SA's property... it is far more likely that the driver just happened to see a random greenish car go by, that had nothing to do with anything.
08-23-2016 , 03:30 PM
Using Occam's Razor, can we determine the odds that an SUV that looks like Teresa's just happens to be seen leaving the Avery Salvage yard way out on Avery Road at the time she is reported leaving is not hers?

Do we have any reason to imagine there were several blue/green SUV's driving away at that particular time and place on a Monday afternoon?

Sure, coincidences can happen - but the remote location would seem to mitigate against the likelihood there were.
08-23-2016 , 03:38 PM
Well seeing as how both TH and her car were found on SA's property, where she was last seen... your choices are that the truck driver saw a random, somewhat similar car... or someone killed TH someplace else, burned her body, drove her car to a corner of SA's property and dumped it, placed her charred remains in SA's burn barrel, and planted blood, DNA, and other physical evidence.

Like I said, Occam's Razor. It's not exciting but the truth often isn't.

Last edited by revots33; 08-23-2016 at 03:50 PM.
08-23-2016 , 03:53 PM
Who saw her at Avery Salvage? It was the same guys who saw her leave, wasn't it?

There's no crime scene found at Avery salvage, so there's a good indication wherever she was killed it was somewhere else.

We can't use this Occam's Razor to cut out inconvenient facts.
08-23-2016 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudfootz Making a Murderer
Who saw her at Avery Salvage? It was the same guys who saw her leave, wasn't it?

There's no crime scene found at Avery salvage, so there's a good indication wherever she was killed it was somewhere else.

We can't use this Occam's Razor to cut out inconvenient facts.
Finally someone applying Occam's Razor to this case correctly.

And speaking of coincidences, this supposed murder took place:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
-3 weeks after depositions of key people not only went in Avery's favor but also potentially could have implicated MORE persons in the civil case
-Just a few days before the actual individuals in positions of power who were implicated in the civil case were to be deposed
-On the exact day the Avery Bill was put into effect
-By phone ordering his victim through a well known company
-On the same day he is scheduled to take Jodi to an Alcoholism class
08-23-2016 , 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudfootz Making a Murderer
Both Steven and Brendan said they saw her drive away. There was also a truck driver who reported he saw the vehicle leaving the area. So the last time anyone who's talking saw Teresa she was headed away from the Avery property. We don't know if she returned alive.

Maybe someone else in the family did have some kind of grudge against Steven and framed him - knowing the police would trip all over themselves to focus on the guy.

It's clear the narrative of the coerced Dassey statements aren't accurate- no blood or DNA where Teresa was supposedly gang raped, stabbed, and shot multiple times, etc.

Since we have very good evidence that Steven stayed close to his house, and no real evidence that the murder was committed there, it's pretty obvious Steven Avery had nothing to do with it.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
...But they still want to believe that it was pure coincidence that ST and Bobby happen to gift wrap Manitowoc Law enforcement a murder 3 weeks after their depositions and 20 feet from the front door of the man who is deposing them. ST/Bobby even would have given MC a jump start on the frame work. Some even want to believe that the murder was actually an accident or suicide turned into golden opportunity for everyone (except SA and BD of course).

Probabilities simply have to be off the bottom of the charts for all this to coincide.

Probabilities of these many events coinciding with a theoretical guilty Steven Avery are even lower than the above theories, and are bordering on absolutely ridiculous.

I do think that ST is involved, but can't say much about Bobby. Bobby is BD's brother. Doesn't seem like he'd just be fine with BD rotting away in jail for the rest of his life. Can't say the same for the step-dad though. If this was a frame job, then it was a complete frame job from well before October 31, 2005 to the present. Manitowoc County didn't just happen to stumble upon a murder yards from SA's front door at this absolutely perfect time. ST didn't just decide to kill someone out of the blue or out of rage or desire and then execute all the steps required to pull of framing SA all while luckboxing the fact that MC decided to just roll with it and continue the frame. Ridiculous. If even one bit of this evidence is not legit, then this was planned well before TH arrived at Avery Salvage on Oct. 31st. It involved everyone we've seen to some degree, and probably a few we haven't seen.

It's also likely that those who are lying and covering up don't know or didn't know that Avery did not commit this murder (although I hope they are doubting that now). They could just be following orders that are rolling down a chain that is anchored by 2-3 guys at the top who do know everything and stand to lose money, future money, status, rank, pride, etc . And perhaps it was enough threat of loss to hatch a plan to make Avery go away. And no, he cannot just be killed as the former sheriff mentioned. That doesn't absolve them of their past transgressions. That doesn't right their wrongs. If they kill him, he becomes a martyr. If they never sent him to jail the first time, maybe he doesn't die in whatever tragic staged death/murder they would come up with. But framing him for rape, murder, mutilation?....well that just makes everything go away, doesn't it?

In my opinion, in the minds of the co-conspirators who are not pulling the strings, they decided long ago Steven Avery is guilty because he's an Avery. And if they are twisting the truth a bit to make sure a guilty, murdering, raping psychopath is sent to jail, then they did their jobs and can sleep at night and will get promoted and keep living their normal lives feeling that much safer. I remember the sketch artist saying he doubted the new DNA tests that exonerated Avery and still believed that Avery raped that woman. After his full exoneration. Can you imagine what must be going through that guy's head when he sees Avery being hugged by the governor and about to win or settle a $36 mil lawsuit? That is the former DEPUTY CHIEF. Some of the seemingly leaked info towards the end of the doc showed us what vicious, slanderous rumor mongering is prevalent in that town about the Averys.

Why would anyone go to these great lengths to handle the Avery problem? Who knows. Maybe someone had plans for some or all of the 36 mil that county stood to lose and now the freeway they were going to build and profit greatly on is going to have to be put on hold. Maybe a former sheriff or 2 plan on running for office somewhere but who's going to vote for someone with a record of terrible police work, cover ups and lies that caused the county to lose 36 million while they were in charge. Maybe with Avery not around and legal bills piling up, The Avery's have to sell the salvage yard. Maybe that land would make a perfect cannabis farm when Wisconsin legalizes and regulates and hey, maybe some names and reputations can be cleared too.

My point is that there may be reasons, but its all just conjecture.

But who could pull off the murder? A member of Law Enforcement? No way. Too risky. If their DNA is somehow found on the scene mixed with TH's, or someone witnesses the act, its over for everybody. A hired hitman? Maybe, but again, too risky. If cops get caught talking to a hitman and Avery's name is in the convo, its game over. No, it's gotta be someone on the inside. Someone with access to SA's yard and knows the area and can move about both day and night. Someone who's close, but not TOO close so as to have ties and allegiances too strong that might cause 2nd thoughts. Someone who's controllable that we have history on and if they fail or get caught, we can simply deny everything and say he's trying to fabricate this stuff to play on the fact that his brother-in-law had the same thing happen. Someone who knows how to handle a weapon well. Someone who knows how to handle bodies, dead bodies, bloody dead bodies and fire....like a hunter or something.

But how do we get him to do it? Maybe he's sick of the heat SA's bringing on his family. Maybe he is jealous of the money and fame Avery has at the moment and he sees an opportunity to land a few mil himself while upping his chances to take over the yard and business. Maybe he's not so fond of the slow kid and wouldn't be too crushed if the kid was raised by the state instead of living at home until he's 40. Maybe he mentions some of this to someone at the town tavern one night and meetings are arranged, ideas are tossed around. Maybe it's mentioned to him that if a dead body ever wound up near Steven Avery's property that Manitowoc would make sure SA was charged and oh by the way, your great uncle in Madison just added you to his will.

- That's how I see things potentially happening.
08-23-2016 , 06:39 PM
So you are literally saying someone in power angry about lawsuit did it? I mean that's pretty insane.
08-23-2016 , 06:40 PM
There are just too many unknowns for any theory of the case to be 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.
08-23-2016 , 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmgGlutten! Making a Murderer
So you are literally saying someone in power angry about lawsuit did it? I mean that's pretty insane.


Oh really?

Just about every gangster film i.ve seen centre's around some1 in power committing a murder, directly or indirectly.

And most murder cases are the same i.e. some1 on a power trip with something to lose, thinks murder or setting up a murder is a reasonable play.

Last edited by smacc25; 08-23-2016 at 07:38 PM.
08-23-2016 , 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Even if the methods used to obtain this "confession" were somehow passable as legal (which they were not), the confession itself is a sh*tshow. How do you not see this? It's incredible how obtuse you have to be to watch / read any or all parts of this confession and come away thinking he had anything to do with this. The confession is blatantly coerced and obviously false. In fact, its downright silly.

Do you think the transgressions that Len Kachinsky and his bigot investigator committed against BD should be tolerable? Do you think he should be held accountable for any injustices, coercion, lies he perpetuated during his involvement?

I do.



I believe that the A.G. is trying to use the Halbach family as scapegoats by asking them advice/input on B.D. so either way (appeal or not) he can say we did our best to convict B.D. & fought the good fight but he got out on a glitch in the system, with the lawyer brother explaining to all members that they could fight but it will be futile.( I believe the Halbach's will appeal & drag it out )
With a few MCSD taking the blame for the **** show off a investigation, or something something the science was not available to us at the time. And by that they prob get a better budget coming forth for training & science stuff, lol politic's & more tax's for the community.

Stay safe out there.

Incoming........



Last edited by smacc25; 08-23-2016 at 07:44 PM.
08-23-2016 , 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmgGlutten! Making a Murderer
So you are literally saying someone in power angry about lawsuit did it? I mean that's pretty insane.
So is almost every nonsensical conspiracy theory that assumes SA's innocence even though her burned body was in his yard. Along with a mountain of other evidence. All of which pointed to the inescapable fact that he killed an innocent young woman because he's a violent, misogynistic sociopath.

It's pretty amazing how a documentary can manipulate otherwise reasonable people into throwing away their common sense.
08-23-2016 , 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revots33 Making a Murderer
So is almost every nonsensical conspiracy theory that assumes SA's innocence even though her burned body was in his yard. Along with a mountain of other evidence. All of which pointed to the inescapable fact that he killed an innocent young woman because he's a violent, misogynistic sociopath.

It's pretty amazing how a documentary can manipulate otherwise reasonable people into throwing away their common sense.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/


Last edited by smacc25; 08-23-2016 at 09:01 PM.
08-23-2016 , 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudfootz Making a Murderer

There's no crime scene found at Avery salvage, so there's a good indication wherever she was killed it was somewhere else.
Lol come on man. Her burned body was found in the guy's yard, in the same place he just happened to be having a bonfire the night of the murder. In a place that was the victim's last known whereabouts. Owned by a creep who specifically requested she be the one sent to his house. On a lot where her car was found, covered up and obviously trying to be hidden from view.

If you honestly think she was killed somewhere else and then dumped in poor old Steve's yard, you should probably never serve on a jury.
08-23-2016 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revots33 Making a Murderer
So is almost every nonsensical conspiracy theory that assumes SA's innocence even though her burned body was in his yard. Along with a mountain of other evidence. All of which pointed to the inescapable fact that he killed an innocent young woman because he's a violent, misogynistic sociopath.

It's pretty amazing how a documentary can manipulate otherwise reasonable people into throwing away their common sense.
I believe one of the main issues in the doc. was the coerced confession of Brendan.

Are you saying the federal judge did not rule on the merits, but was rather persuaded by the documentary into "throwing away" his common sense?

I understand you have taken a strong position against the doc. as propaganda, but your position has diminished considerably (even though you don't seem to acknowledge such) once a Federal Judge has ruled the confession inadmissible - you know, just what the documentary was suggesting.

If it comes down to credibility, the documentary has certainly scored more points than you have.
08-23-2016 , 09:11 PM
fwiw weren't her burned bones were also find down by the lake and in a burn barrel in the back of his in-laws house.

If he hid the key in his bookshelf, why scrub it clean of TH's DNA? That only makes sense for a third party to do.
08-23-2016 , 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revots33 Making a Murderer
Lol come on man. Her burned body was found in the guy's yard, in the same place he just happened to be having a bonfire the night of the murder.
No one but her killer(s) know when she was murdered. Indeed, no one knows how she died.

People in the US sometimes have bonfires on Halloween. Steve even invited people over that night. Not a good time to host a murder, unless he expected everyone in the neighborhood to be OK with him killing someone and implicating them in the crime.


Quote:
In a place that was the victim's last known whereabouts.
There's some doubts who was the last innocent person to see her. Was it the truck driver who saw her drive away from Avery's? Or was it the woman that saw Teresa taking pictures on the side of the road?

Quote:
Owned by a creep who specifically requested she be the one sent to his house.
Smooth move to let everyone know that the person he supposedly intended to kill was coming over. During business hours at a place open for business, with customers, family, and friends coming and going all night.

Quote:
On a lot where her car was found, covered up and obviously trying to be hidden from view.
Yes, some days later the car was allegedly 'found' there, in a place where anyone could have parked it and ineffectually placed a few bits of debris against it.

Quote:
If you honestly think she was killed somewhere else and then dumped in poor old Steve's yard, you should probably never serve on a jury.
Why not? Should we keep people who are too smart off of juries and only have idiots decide the fate of those accused?
08-23-2016 , 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmgGlutten! Making a Murderer
fwiw weren't her burned bones were also find down by the lake and in a burn barrel in the back of his in-laws house.
Yes, it appears Teresa's bones were found in several locations. It appears this is an indication the bones were moved from wherever the body was burned.

Quote:
If he hid the key in his bookshelf, why scrub it clean of TH's DNA? That only makes sense for a third party to do.
Yes, the story of the spare key all by itself is reasonable doubt.

All indications are that it was planted where it was 'found'.
08-23-2016 , 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revots33 Making a Murderer
All of which pointed to the inescapable fact that he killed an innocent young woman because he's a violent, misogynistic sociopath.
Innocent young woman...

All young people I suppose are innocent.

SA never murdered anyone in his life. In the middle of depositions and on Avery Freedom Day, he suddenly decides to kill someone with an accomplice on his own property. He knows he is a suspect, yet leaves the victim's car on his property and goes on vacation.

They certainly both may be guilty. Incredible rush to judgement that tarnished everything. If it was handled properly, nobody would be talking about this 10 years later.
08-23-2016 , 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Even if the methods used to obtain this "confession" were somehow passable as legal (which they were not), the confession itself is a sh*tshow. How do you not see this? It's incredible how obtuse you have to be to watch / read any or all parts of this confession and come away thinking he had anything to do with this. The confession is blatantly coerced and obviously false. In fact, its downright silly.

Do you think the transgressions that Len Kachinsky and his bigot investigator committed against BD should be tolerable? Do you think he should be held accountable for any injustices, coercion, lies he perpetuated during his involvement?

I do.
My post was my opinion on how the State will handle the Federal ruling.

I agree on what you wrote. I have read and watched the "confession" and it is absolutely coerced. I think a great strategy would have had him confess to a multitude of crimes like he killed JFK and fictional characters to show how susceptible he was.

I think the "defense" attorney and his "investigator" should both be tried civilly and criminally for their abhorrent breach of duties. Every person deserves the right of defense. None more than a 16-year old with an obvious mental impairment.
08-24-2016 , 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudfootz Making a Murderer
I wonder if it is dangerous. Even if the appeal is rejected will the State of Wisconsin be in any more trouble than if they don't appeal?

With the evident vindictiveness of some people in the State they could appeal just to sadistically cause Brendan to spend more time in prison even if they know the outcome is that he will ultimately be released.

I get the feeling they are all in, win or lose.





      
m