Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Making a Murderer Making a Murderer

12-28-2015 , 06:44 PM
Brother definitely came off douchey, but it's hard to blame him when you look at it from his perspective. Cops had him convinced no one but Avery could be the guy.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 07:00 PM
By the way, what's with the passwords? Her brother found the password to her voicemail messages, her ex-boyfriend found her password to her phone records? Are these 2 separate things? I'm confused.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 07:15 PM
Yeah they are separate. One is to just be able to check and listen to VM. The other is like when you go online to pay your bill you can also look at all the numbers you've called and stuff.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedeete
I think that was someone from Steven's family, and the quote was something like "we should check the shoes, see if any of the footprints match unsolved crimes". As in, they were making a joke that they would get framed again.

At least that's how I remember it.
When watching it I assumed this was a video from the police from one of the earlier (prior to the key discovery) searches. It doesn't make sense that it would be a relative and the Avery/Dassey crew don't seem likely to own a camcorder (was prior to cell video cameras being a thing).
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic
Yeah they are separate. One is to just be able to check and listen to VM. The other is like when you go online to pay your bill you can also look at all the numbers you've called and stuff.

I see, thanks.

Well my theory is obv a longshot but if you told me someone in the documentary did it besides SA, I'd bet my money on those 2.

Have to admit I really like this topic, I keep going back and forth between "guilty" and "not guilty".
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 07:39 PM
Chances are he did it. If he didn't it was almost surely a relative or someone else that lived on the Avery property. That said I don't think there's enough to return a guilty verdict. The key thing just makes no sense whatsoever.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 07:42 PM
I really think it was a relative too. So much motive. Also interesting to follow the line of how Lenk came into possession of the key.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 07:42 PM
Lol was searching for the clip about the boots, found the part where they interviewed brother and ex-boyfriend together. Watch episode 2 from 45:30 to 46:15 and tell me this doesn't look like 2 guilty people desperately trying to coordinate eachothers story. Seriously, they're stuttering all over the place over a fairly innocent question.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 08:17 PM
What motive does the brother have? He doesn't come off the greatest in the documentary but it's mainly due to him believing the prosecution and cops 100%. His sister was murdered so I can't fault him for not being objective and seeing through some of the BS evidence and confession.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 08:22 PM
Why didn't Steven take the stand?
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 08:24 PM
I imagine his lawyers thought he could only hurt his case.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 10:07 PM
pancake came back on a second account, so i removed all traces of both accounts and the replies to them. i hope no one minds and doesn't think that affected the conversation - i doubt it.

quite a few of you were complaining about his presence here, and hoya made apost along the lines of it reminding him of the amanda knox thread, which i of course agree with. it would be great to just discuss this show with 2+2 posters as they see it. if you want to discuss with outside crazies, there's plenty on reddit.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 10:36 PM
cool. btw after reading your posts i suspect you may be as dumb as brendan dassey.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 11:18 PM
This is fantastic. I am already rewatching. I only started watching because I was reading some of the episode descriptions and being from Wisconsin I was basically insta hooked
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 11:28 PM
"Some good sleuthing going on. Keep them coming." - SA's defense lawyer Jerome Puting tweeted out a link to an expanded version of the alternate theory. (the one where the german killed her - not discussed at all in the show)

https://twitter.com/JButing/status/681338979501912064

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurd...nued_spoilers/

Doesn't explain everything, but is a very interesting read, and includes a bunch of links to source documents as appropriate to corroborate many of 'citizens' story as to her interactions with the sheriffs and courts.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 11:33 PM
post has been deleted now, i guess it's this?:

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html

which is linked to here:

http://fusion.net/story/249427/netfl...nt=desktop+top
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by En Passant
Why didn't Steven take the stand?
What would the defense have asked him? He doesn't know anything. He has no evidence to introduce. He can't even try to combat the prosecution's story since the prosecution never really presented a coherant timeline, or even overall narrative of how/why this happened.

Any questions the defense could ask SA would just be twisted as a straw man by the prosecution.

example,
Spoiler:
closing argument, defense lawyer paraphrased "there is no evidence of TH blood or dna in the bedroom, no evidence of rape, no evidence of slit throat". prosecution then says in their closing argument for the first time - "the garage, we're saying he killed her in the garage, not the bedroom".


Since the prosecution wasn't saying exactly how, when, where, or even what happened for most of the trial, SA didn't have any specific allegation to try to disprove. You put SA up there, he has no clearing information to present to help his defense, and you run a major risk of the prosecution being able to flummox him into saying something bad.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 11:45 PM
Is anyone else bothered by the lack of defense shown for Brandon?

Seems like they could have gotten his charges drastically reduced by citing his age and that he was afraid of saying no to his uncle and merely went over to his uncles to deliver mail and got dragged into a nightmare.

I feel like we're missing a lot of info about his trial, I just don't understand how he could get the sentence he got based on what was shown
Making a Murderer Quote
12-28-2015 , 11:45 PM
Does anyone know if Steven took a polygraph? I know its not admissible but Id be curious to know the results. He's got a good poker face on the clips they've shown
Making a Murderer Quote
12-29-2015 , 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeti
post has been deleted now, i guess it's this?:

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html

which is linked to here:

http://fusion.net/story/249427/netfl...nt=desktop+top
oh wow, that was just deleted in the last 10 minutes. Yes, it's an elaboration of the convolutedbrian.com story - but written by a different author based on his own independent interview with the female subject.

Since the post was deleted on reddit, and i still have it on my screen, i'll paste it here. if a mod thinks this is inappropriate, my apologies.

Spoiler:
Please consider this only as a theory with a very critical eye and please do let me know your thoughts. However, DO NOT USE ANY OF THIS INFORMATION TO HARASS OR BADGER ANYONE INVOLVED!! I've put this together because the logical question that would need to be answered if SA is indeed innocent is "if not SA, then who?" I'm not certain of SA's innocence, but I feel that TH's family deserves a better answer than what was presented at trial.

Big ups to u/EmilyLouiseChurch1 for finding the court records to corroborate some facts in http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html and u/AmpLee for reaching out to the citizen.

I've gone ahead and pulled together some additional info to support an alternate theory of the crime. It fits fairly well with the facts that were presented during the trial, but relies heavily on the claims that "the citizen" from Brian's blog post makes. However, if they are true, they present a plausible version of events that makes every bit as much sense as the nonsense to which Brendan Dassey "confessed".

Facts and less disputed evidence from trial:

-------Manitowoc County was on the hook for $36 million if they were found liable in SA's civil suit because insurers were balking on payment given the alleged misconduct of the DA and sheriff's office

-------On November 2nd, a third party deleted voice messages from TH's voicemail

-------On November 3rd, a sheriff's deputy calls in TH's plates with a vehicle description

-------TH was killed and her body burned between 10/31 and 11/5

------- TH's Rav 4 was found on SA's lot 11/5

------- TH's remains were found in two or three piles, two relatively close to SA's trailer and another roughly 2,000 ft SW of the pit in the quarry though it’s unclear that they certainly belonged to TH

-------TH's skull had what appeared to the forensic examiner to be 2 .22 bullet holes

Discussion of an alternative story

I have heard from "the citizen" in Brian's blog story, and she claims that she was his original source. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve her, but I am confident that she is the person listed in the court documents that u/EmilyLouiseChurch1 found. I will be sure to call out what I've corroborated separately (like this) from now on. She provides the following version of events somewhat consistent with what she told Brian (I can discuss privately why I’m confident this person is indeed the citizen):

The week of October 31st 2015, the citizen’s husband at the time, now ex-, "the husband", was acting strangely, cutting the tags from her clothing and cutting her clothing apart. Their relationship became strained so she rented a place in Maribel, WI to separate. The property is about 5 miles from Avery Auto Salvage, and is located along the route Teresa would have taken to get home to St. John from SA's (I've verified that court docs for the citizen did list a location along this route): http://*******/1mgPseV

On the 6th, the husband was taken into custody after a dispute with the citizen after his behavior became increasingly erratic (verified with court documents). The citizen shared that after that time, her dogs kept finding bones that the citizen believed to be human, as well as a pair of underwear, and a tool kit with a mason hammer with flicks of blood on it (in a police report filed after a complaint was made by the citizen). The underwear and tools were turned into the police (acknowledged in what looks like a genuine police report by the officer recording her complaint).

Her theory is that TH was drawn to the property because it had a "for rent" sign on it and stopped for more information, perhaps to photograph the property (the property's tax assessment lists a third party owner as of 2013 -- it appears to indeed be a rental property). The husband then killed TH by strangulation and with the mason hammer, put her body in the Rav 4, and parked the Rav 4 in the barn before burning her body on November 2nd.

The husband was held after his arrest on November 6th until January, at which point he was released (confirmed with court documents), then re-arrested almost immediately after getting into another dispute with the citizen. His next release was on March 2nd, the day after Brandon Dassey's confession when Dassey was first arrested with the stipulation that he check in with the Sheriff's office daily (again all confirmed this with court documents). According to the citizen, the husband was held in psychiatric facilities during some of his stay with the county.

What is not articulated above, but not difficult to guess, is how the Rav 4 and remains got onto SA's property.

A relatively simple hypothesis: the plate query on the 3rd resulted when the sheriff's deputy found the Rav 4 along with the remains of TH's body. One or more officers worked on moving the car to SA's lot before the 5th and relocated TH's remains to their final location.

The key was found later than the blood in the Rav 4 because the police had access to the Rav 4 earlier than SA's trailer because they had the Rav 4 before it was found, and so the blood was present before the key was found. The bullet was tampered with as the defense claims.

Interesting developments after the husband’s release: both the citizen and the husband moved to Oregon (they appear in an Oregon newspaper), but according to the citizen, the husband was deported in 2009. At that point, the citizen moves back to Wisconsin and starts digging around to find out what happened and why the husband wasn’t arrested, etc. During this time, she gets in touch with convoluted Brian, and Brian posts her story to his blog. Shortly after Brian posts his blog on June 23rd, the out-building(s) in which the Rav 4 was allegedly hidden, and where the murder allegedly took place, were burned down. (I couldn’t confirm they were burned down, but if you find the address, check out the street view vs. the aerial view. The street view date is October 2008 and the out buildings are still there, and aerial from 2015 doesn’t show them…super creepy).

The citizen begins having trouble with local law enforcement, culminating in her arrest for animal cruelty in 2013. She currently has a warrant out for her arrest by the Manitowoc Sheriff's department (both verified with court documents), though she since moved out of state. The citizen also produced links to Facebook profiles for the husband. Looks like he's living abroad still, though not in his native country.

A caveat to all: this whole story is about the citizen's now ex-husband. I wouldn't accuse an ex of killing somebody no matter how it ended, but I'm not the citizen, so certainly consider the alternative story of the crime with a grain of salt. That being said, everything she does say seems to check out generally and the husband, if she is telling the truth, could be the answer to “if not SA, then who?”

Also, a couple of questions I haven’t seen elsewhere:

Where were the rest of TH’s keys? Who goes out with only a car key?

I found a source that says that cremation requires 90 minutes at 1600 - 1800 C, but an outdoor fire would surely be cooler. TH’s body would have needed much longer than the 7-9 time frame given by the DA no? (http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...ermal-injuries)


I think the 'citizen' has been getting significantly harrassed on reddit for a mostly separate topic, something having to do with dogs, and that may have something to do with this being deleted there. Citizen had also posted herself in the comments of that thread to answer several questions, but her comments have also been deleted. Likely either she was found to not be who she claimed, or my guess that she wanted to lower her exposure a bit on that site, stuff's blowing up.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-29-2015 , 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yimyammer
Is anyone else bothered by the lack of defense shown for Brandon?

Seems like they could have gotten his charges drastically reduced by citing his age and that he was afraid of saying no to his uncle and merely went over to his uncles to deliver mail and got dragged into a nightmare.
^^^ only person who thought Len Kachinsky could have been the hero of the story if only he hadn't been railroaded out.
Making a Murderer Quote
12-29-2015 , 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollWave
^^^ only person who thought Len Kachinsky could have been the hero of the story if only he hadn't been railroaded out.
I'm not following you amigo, could you explain please sir
Making a Murderer Quote
12-29-2015 , 12:35 AM
Why did they just look up the phone records to determine what numbers called Teresas phone to try an determine who might have left the deleted voice mails?
Making a Murderer Quote
12-29-2015 , 12:56 AM
Haven't really seen it mentioned in detail here, but Steven Avery allegedly sexually assaulted his relative when she was 16 in 2014.

He was going to be charged if he was somehow found not guilty (but because he was put away for life, and in order to protect the victim, he was never charged).

I find it very disturbing that this (among other info) was never mentioned in the show...

Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurd...ssault_threat/

Original article: http://archive.htrnews.com/article/9...harges-delayed
Making a Murderer Quote
12-29-2015 , 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollWave
oh wow, that was just deleted in the last 10 minutes. Yes, it's an elaboration of the convolutedbrian.com story - but written by a different author based on his own independent interview with the female subject.

Since the post was deleted on reddit, and i still have it on my screen, i'll paste it here. if a mod thinks this is inappropriate, my apologies.



I think the 'citizen' has been getting significantly harrassed on reddit for a mostly separate topic, something having to do with dogs, and that may have something to do with this being deleted there. Citizen had also posted herself in the comments of that thread to answer several questions, but her comments have also been deleted. Likely either she was found to not be who she claimed, or my guess that she wanted to lower her exposure a bit on that site, stuff's blowing up.
Yeah, she scammed a bunch of people on the dog site and the reddit forum was saying that she was a pathological liar, so I am not sure how much to believe from her story.

If SA didn't do it, I would think someone on that property did.
Making a Murderer Quote

      
m