It seems to me the usual practice in a missing person case would be to go after every clue as soon as possible before something happens to the missing person or they harm themselves.

In this case they erase Teresa's voice mails and when her car turns up no one looks inside for clues as to where she might be. It's almost like they knew what happened, so no big rush to find her alive.

They were talking about the grieving process during the time she was just a missing person. It doesn't mean they had special knowledge, but it is a mind set they considered her dead and were just scouring for clues. Clearly the private investigator and sheriff assumed she was dead when he informed her to get away from the car vs. asking if there are any signs of her...dead or alive.

And even though she was not in her car, there is a non-zero chance she was dead or alive in the near vicinity, but no search was conducted.

Odd. There were only bones found and it took months to even guess that they were even her bones and that was disputed. Not sure why the search efforts ended so quickly based solely on three drops of blood. No person admitted to killing her either.

This was all unique and it still may be that he killed her. We just won't ever really know where or how unless he wants to tell us and we believe him. BD seems to be a horrible source of info given his conflicting stories and lack of corroborating evidence.

We are all left guessing.

I agree, at this point it seems like unless there is a confession from the killer(s) we won't know for sure.

I don't think Brendan ever even saw Teresa. Everything he 'knows' about the crime is based on what people were gossiping about.

One who asserts must prove. regardless of your magical thinking. She hasn't a hope of making her bs stick & certainly not of proving RH a suspect. Stick me on ig if you don't wish to read my bursting your bubble posts, rather than whinge about it, problem solved mate.

There was no need to even involve Dassey if the intention was to frame Avery. Cops coulda simply planted drugs or indeed murdered Avery if they wanted him outa the way. But hey-Netflix. (and brain fingerprinting lol)

You're conflating your personal criteria for evidence with the standard criteria.
PB's testimony was evidence it was simply flawed evidence & flawed because he didn't do it but compelling because she really believed he did do it & her testimony was considered credible and it only highlights how imperfect our system is, nothing more.

There is no evidence to arrest, charge try or convict RH & Avery's supporters willingness to deem accusation sufficient enough for him, merely highlights their absolutely stunning and quite jaw dropping double standards, in order to fuel their implausible & utterly fraudulent innocence narrative.
Nor is RH a habitual felon like Avery who would have been regarded as a viable potential suspect for any number of crimes including animal cruelty, attempted kidnapping & burglary.
Supporters simply disregard such context as their argument is purely agenda based in order to get the outcome they desire even if they haven't a hope in justifying it. Utterly shameful behaviour from them.

I pointed this out before to Avery's supporters on other forums and they simply disregard it, like they disregard how he seemed remarkably resistance to suggestibility on the stand and disregard the overwhelming evidence against Avery. There is no consistency to their argument at all & I expected better from at least some of the posters itt I gotta say.

What are all the felonies that Avery has committed?

There are as far as I can tell 3 possibilities that you're suggesting.

1) Pam knew who killed TH and was helping the killer cover it up.

2)Pam did not know who killed TH and was fooled into helping the killer cover it up

3) pam did not know who killed TH yet was helping the killer cover it up (this would be framing avery while not knowing if he did it)

Option 1 makes no sense.

Option 2 can be discounted based on pams testimoney because if option 2 were true pam wouldnt know she was fooled and would have no reason to lie under oath. Pam claims RH suggested against searching at the salvage yard, you posted this quote from her testimoney.

option 3 is what you're left with. Everyone is just framing avery because.. Well just because! You know, no one wants avery to get paid. Not even pam!


There are hardly any cars between the office and where she started and I bet most of those cars are customers so no, the photo isn't misleading. Besides between the office and where she started is what, 100 yards?

Attempted murder, two cases of burglary, animal cruelty, felon with possesion of a firearm. (this is what hes been convicted of)

There are also two women claiming he raped them, one was underage at the time and in fact the state was going to pursue rape charges against avery on behalf of this girl before the TH murder happened . So even if this murder never happeend SA was probably going back to prison and will go back to prison if by some miracle he gets released.

Furthermore, in regards to where pam started to search. Isn't that where Earl recommended she start?

There s alot of possible shades between theory 2 and 3.
As for lieing under oath I ve no doubt in my mind that alot of people can be convinced by KK without to much effort.

Ironic coming from someone who joins a forum simply for the pleasure of putting half the people there on ignore.

It's absurd to think Brendan should have had the instincts at the age of 16 (along with some learning disability) to be able to resist high pressure interrogation tactics from ruthless cops who care more about securing a conviction than in solving crimes.

From the first interview they are working on Brendan to change his testimony to something that 'helps' them pin a crime on Steven. Cops telling witnesses what they should say is suborning perjury.

2 and 3 sound like the same thing restated.

But, basically it is this: IF the RAVV4 was planted, THEN PoG either knew it was or did not know it was. IF she knew it was planted, THEN she either knew or didn't know who planted it. And so on.

It does make sense. You may think it impossible for someone to know who committed a crime and still help them cover it up, but I think even a cursory search of Google will turn up some occasions where it appears to have been the case.

Nothing that actually happens cannot 'make no sense'. You need to expand your little notions of 'what makes sense' to include things that actually happen in the real world.

The quote shows that the claim that PoG testified that she was warned away from searching that area was a false claim. Far from discouraging her, your reading is that Hillegas was suggesting it to her.

As you can see, this is not the only option I am left with. Actually, no one has to think that and AFAICT nobody does. Except would-be debunkers trying out their strawman skillz.

I certainly never made any claim that if there was a conspiracy to frame Steven it was 'just because'.

No, the photo is not misleading: the person who put those X's on the photo was misleading.

Pam testified that she went to the office first, one of those buildings at the bottom of the photograph.

If the so-called 'starting point' is at least 100 yards off there is a definite problem. Especially with buildings and trees in the way. Oh, and a ton of cars.

1 and 2 are not the same, there is a subtle difference. Either she was being fooled or she was helping fool others, unless she was framing avery knowingly without knowing who the killer was.

No option 1 doesn't make any sense. You think she has more loyalty to RH or one of his friends than she does to TH? Furthermore, how would she even know who the killer was? RH just told her? Lol think about it.

Her testimoney is that RH told her searching the salvage yard wasn't a good idea and was a waste of time. So yes, this makes option 2 very unlikely.

Option 3 is what you're left with. Pam framed avery, because of reasons. Everyone is guilty but the man who has all the evidence stacked against him. When we are at a dead end we just resort to magic aka someone put the evidence there. Right?

As for the photo, I already explained that to you.

1) It was suggested to her by Earl to start searching there

2) there is NOT that many cars if she is doing a perimeter search from a to b, she is only passing a few dozen cars at most, most of which are probably customers as they are parked by the office.

3) It is NOT that far from the office, it is 100 yards or less. You are suggesting she must start by the office without providing any reasons why while she has provided reasons why she didn't start by the office.

Right, but notice I didn't rule out theory 1 or 3 based on this. Only theory 2. Under theory 2 she has no reason to lie. She would have just been tricked under this theory to find the car.

No one said they were. I pointed out that there didn't seem to be any significant difference between 2 and 3 on your list.

I don't know what she knows, and neither do you. That's what thinking about it reveals. You should have taken your own advice. I don't know how she felt about Teresa, and neither do you. I don't know about her links to Manitowoc law enforcement, and neither do you.

You are welcome to imagine all sorts of lovely things about PoG, her loyalties and her morality, but they are not based on anything substantial.

Yes, if her testimony is to be believed, that would tend to diminish options which include PoG taking suggestions from Hillegas. But at no point did PoG testify that Hillegas told her it wasn't a good idea or a waste of time.

"I indicated that I would like to go to the Avery Salvage Yard where Teresa was last seen. And he said, well, if you want to, it's not part of, you know, the search, but if you wish to do that, go ahead."

IF PoG knowingly framed Steven, THEN obviously she had a reason. Duh!

Are you talking about the 1985 case when Steven was framed for a crime he could not have committed, even though police ignored evidence that showed he was innocent and ginned up 'evidence' to put him in prison?

Or are you talking about the 2005 case when cops involved in a lawsuit regarding the previous false conviction kept finding 'evidence' of another crime they wanted to pin on Steven?


Planting evidence is not magic - unless you are counting deliberate deception, misdirection, and slight of hand to fool a bunch of rubes. Even rubes who think they are great skeptics.

Is that what PoG testified to in court?

Or something you might have heard somewhere?

Standing in the parking area in front of the office, which from her testimony would appear to be where PoG would be, she has many choices of which direction to start her search.

So far there is zero evidence that Earl suggested to her which direction to choose. I'd be very happy to see where Earl swears in court he told her how best to search the yard.

PoG was physically inside the office, so that is the starting point. After getting permission from Earl to search the yard, the search begins. Not 100 yards later.

I really don't see the point in your attempting to fight every point of fact tooth and nail. Pick your battles. Make it about something substantial instead of lashing out at everything willy nilly.

There is a significant difference.

Theory 1= pam was helping the killer frame avery

theory 2= the killer was tricking pam into framing avery

The events would be different in a world where theory 1 happened vs a world where theory 2 happened.


Ya, dude. People are generally not ok with murder and they generally feel extremely conflicted if they are faced with the reality of covering up a murder committed by someone else. TH was a relative of hers, its her sisters kid. Did her sister suggest pam didnt like her? How about not like her enough to assist the killer with covering up the murder? You're living in a fantasy land dude; out of all the people that cared about TH not one has suggested that Pam would have wanted to kill her, frame the wrong person, or help the killer get away with it. If there was some known turmoil between the two itd be known by now and youd be jumping all over it to defend the child rapist currently sitting in prison for killing TH.

Um yes they are, an argument from silence works just fine here. Basically, if Pam would have had any realistic motive to do anything you're suggesting we would know about it.


Notice again, I only argued her testimony should be believed under theory 2. Why would she lie if she wasn't helping the killer knowningly?

"its not part of the you know search" does not sound like someone nudging her along to find a stashed car.. Does it?



That is theory 1, I wasnt addressing theory 1 when I said that.



No one framed steven in 1985, even if they did none of those cops are still working for manitwoc. The connection is hardly relevant.

None of the cops were being sued who found any evidence. Lenk and Colborn were testifying AGAINST the person avery was suing.



Pretty sure if she was making that up earl would have told someone by now. Does earl think Pam did it? nope.



You mean just running through the middle of 1000 + cars with 0 direction? Yes, that may be how someone like you would do it.

No, it is completely logical that should would pass those 20 or 30 cars to start searching a perimeter suggested to her by the owner of the property. Especially when a lot of those cars were probably customers. She starts at the first large bulk of cars around the perimeter.

Furthermore, there is evidence earl told her this. If he didn't he would have said so by now.

If there is anybody that had a motive here, it was the sheriff's department who was in the middle of depositions.

This was such a well-known problem that they take the highly unusual step of publicly recusing themselves from an investigation in their own territory and handing it over to a neighboring LEO community.

Yet...all major evidence was discovered by personnel that were only supposed to provide field assistance. They also were the key prosecution witnesses during the trial.

All the people that were specifically told to stay away due to very strong belief they may corrupt the investigation or at least the perception were smack in the middle.

And people wonder why there is doubt???

It was created by their very own department and not anybody else. If they stayed away, there would be a lot fewer people that would wonder. Instead, they were fixated on him from the get go.


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Which might explain why I am talking about 2 and 3, not 1 and 2.

It's nice you are interested in fantasizing about what PoG thinks and believes and how she feels about everything. You don't even know her. You are the one living in a fantasy land.

We would know because cops spent hours questioning her and trying to shake her story? We would know because there are extensive background files on PoG accumulated by police checking into her?

There's too many reasons for people to lie on the witness stand to list here.

It is not someone discouraging her from searching the area or telling her it was a waste of time, as was falsely asserted.

I hope I am helping you understand what you are talking about.

IMO if someone does something, they did it for some reason even if we don't know what that reason is.

Steven was suing the police department for framing him in the 1985 case.

It is highly relevant, as some of the cops who gave depositions in the lawsuit were allowed to participate in searches of the Avery place, and coincidentally seem to be the fellows who found the key evidence in the case. This was after it was publicly announced these same cops would not participate because of the obvious conflict of interest.

Really? So they were joining Steven in claiming the 1985 case was a frame up? This is new information to me.

That would tend to go against your theory that the false conviction in the 1985 case was legit.

PoG never claims Earl told her where to start. That would appear to be something somebody invented.

Why would Earl make a public statement to contradict something PoG never said?

These are junk cars, they aren't going anywhere. Whichever direction she went she'd be looking at cars.

Is there any evidence Earl suggested starting any particular place? What did Earl testify to in court?

That is insane. Why would Earl call a press conference to deny something no one ever said?

Do you think he reads this thread and would jump in as soon as you start making stuff up?

You mean other than his multiple burglary convictions, animal cruelty & attempted carjacking/kidnapping?

Not Avery though convicted of attempting to kidnap a female at gunpoint & who has multiple allegations of rape & proven behaviour of threatening women as well as affidavits (considering you supporters put so much stock in them) from prisoners saying how Avery wished to rape & torture women. No motive from Avery at all, no siree bob...

As to the rest of your post, no evidence for it despite your fervent passionate belief in a frame up.

Yes. Normal sane reasonable rational people anyway. Aka not Avery & Dassey's fanboys/girls
.

Investigators go where the evidence leads them & in this case it led them to Avery & Dassey and was sufficient to arrest, charge try and convict them in separate courts.

So based on this and the fact that there's no evidence for your theories, yeah both are guilty & the only ones doubting it are people who can't assess evidence correctly & for whom logic is an alien concept.

Ya like two separate juries not to mention trial & appellate courts

Why was Avery never charged with this? It has been years. You're suggesting somehow if he gets released from the TH murder he will then be charged with a rape from many years ago? That makes no sense.