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Old 09-16-2017, 08:23 PM   #11576
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post
I never followed any GoT hype and finally started watching the show 2 months ago and just finished. Never read any discussion because fear of spoilers.

I'm curious how my rankings compare to others ... My rankings:

S1>S4>S3>S2>S5>S6>S7

Show clearly kind of lost it after S5... S6 was just terrible imo, outside of a few battles & scenes (Cersei destroying everyone was very cool, but my main emotion was intense relief that the horrible high sparrow-plotline was over). S7 was not terrible but I really don't like where they've taken the plot. I know the night king has always been a part of the show but it showing up at the end as "the ultimate badguy" and everyone uniting (or trying to) to battle him is turning it into a completely different show imo. It's like suddenly Game of Thrones turned in Harry Potter (I love both, I just mean that in HP the ultimate badguy was the focus since the beginning & it was clear where the plot was heading).

I think what also killed this show is that they always want to have a ton of characters, and they really failed in replacing the magic of everyone they killed off. This started becoming really apparant in S5 & on for me.

Finally, there's only a few kills where I thought "the show killed off this character too soon", but the worst one has to be Lord Baelish . I understand that once that Bran is back in Winterfell they have to kill him off, but I was hoping he'd realize he was in danger and escape.
I'd put this season and last season ahead of season 5. That season left such a bad taste in my mouth and they butchered Dorne
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:38 AM   #11577
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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Have you read the books? S1-S4 followed books fairly closely so if you enjoyed them, you'd likely enjoy the books too. There are some minor changes TV show made, mainly for the worse, so you might enjoy the books even more
No I haven't read the books. Deff interested in them but the fact that they might never get finished scares me. I'll probably wait until it's certain that the series will get finished .

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I'd put this season and last season ahead of season 5. That season left such a bad taste in my mouth and they butchered Dorne
Yeah there's deff a huge dropoff in quality after S4. I didn't read the books so things getting butchered doesn't impact me, but the plot got more messy for sure. Is S5 where they started departing from the books more & more? Would explain a lot. I agree that purely from a "stuff not being terrible"-POV S7 was the strongest season from S05-07, but just didn't like a lot of the content.
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:40 AM   #11578
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

Most of season 5 is broadly in line with the books, as much as it can be given all the plots that were altered and left out etc. The Stannis plot goes further than the books. Season 6 is virtually all advancing beyond the books.

The problems with season 5 (which I still think is way better than 6 or 7) more or less stem from the books, not because what's on screen is what was written, but because of the major surgery they needed to perform to get rid of a bunch of interminable plotlines from books 4 and 5. hair loss's claim that the show "butchered Dorne" is a common one from bookreaders. The problem is that what was actually written was the introduction of a whole new cast of largely dull characters, with no hint given of why we should care about any of it, engaged in boring and pointless palace intrigue. If they'd filmed it as written, GOT might not have got a sixth season.

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Old 09-19-2017, 01:09 PM   #11579
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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Most of season 5 is broadly in line with the books, as much as it can be given all the plots that were altered and left out etc. The Stannis plot goes further than the books. Season 6 is virtually all advancing beyond the books.

The problems with season 5 (which I still think is way better than 6 or 7) more or less stem from the books, not because what's on screen is what was written, but because of the major surgery they needed to perform to get rid of a bunch of interminable plotlines from books 4 and 5. hair loss's claim that the show "butchered Dorne" is a common one from bookreaders. The problem is that what was actually written was the introduction of a whole new cast of largely dull characters, with no hint given of why we should care about any of it, engaged in boring and pointless palace intrigue. If they'd filmed it as written, GOT might not have got a sixth season.
this is a common take and I've come to appreciate that it's wrong. Now that we have a long time before the next season and book, I challenge you to read @poorquentyns take on Quentyn Martell. It's 7 parts and long but is a wonderful defense and explanation for a much panned character and entire storyline. It gives you a much better understanding of (part) of what GRRM was doing in ADWD.

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Quentyn Martell is not the hero. He will never be king. He will never marry the beautiful princess. He will never avenge his family. He will never go home. He died knowing his friends died for nothing, knowing he slaughtered teenagers for nothing, believing himself worthless.

He was not. He mattered.

Quent mattered to GRRM, and he matters to me; he lived and lost, tried and died. This series will be devoted to exploring all the facets of his gem of a storyline: the IMO sharpest genre commentary in the series, the window it provides onto the hell of the Meereenese Knot, the pitiless critique it aims at Doran. I’ll be talking about fairy tales, dense symbolic imagery, the horrors of war, but also fear and humiliation and guilt and desperate blind hope.

Above all, though, I will be talking about Quent. He wasn’t a redshirt, gods no; he was smart and sweet and shy and sad, and never wanted to be the hero. He never wanted a quest. How can that be, a young prince in a fantasy story, not wanting a quest to wed the beautiful princess? Surely that’s your dream, the one you’re being kept from by Circumstances! But with Quent, GRRM flips the script: all Quent wanted was a quiet life with his wife, and for his friends to be alive again. To borrow from countless war stories, that poor kid just wanted to go home.

So that’s really the main point of this series: explaining why my blog is called what it is. It only broke my heart when Quent walked semi-knowingly to his death because I cared about him so much before he did it. Or as Drink puts it:

“Men’s lives have meaning, not their deaths.”
but all that said, I get why this storyline was cut from the show. not bc it was bad, but bc it was far too sprawling and complex given the limits of the show

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Old 09-19-2017, 06:17 PM   #11580
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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Originally Posted by bbfg View Post

I'm curious how my rankings compare to others ... My rankings:

S1>S4>S3>S2>S5>S6>S7.
This is pretty close to mine but I'd do it more like this:

S1>S3>S2>S4>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>S6>S7>S5.

As soon as the show writers didn't have Martin to hold their hand (starting S5) the results were obvious. Martin isn't perfect, the books have flawed parts but no where near to the degree we have seen in seasons 5-7 of the show.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:29 PM   #11581
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

A lot of the problems in S5 are problems in the books, though. I mean, the book rankings look like

B3>B1>B2>>>>>>>>B5>B4

or so?

Everything after the events of the 3rd book, in both the show and the books, has been a confused mess. A lot of the new stuff they put in was bad, true, but non-book readers aren't aware just how much bad **** they took out. They got 4 good seasons of TV out of the first 3 books(cutting out very little, only one significant character imo) but 2 monster tomes(like 1800 pages between them) only gave them enough show-worthy material to make one mediocre season.

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Old 09-20-2017, 01:27 PM   #11582
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

I think apart from the first half of Book 5 (especially the first Dany and Tyrion chapters), the books are fine. After rereading the series twice, I actually think Book 4 is to ASOIAF what S2 is to the Wire.

The problem is that Martin seems to be unable to tie up all the threads. That's why the show suffered because I think he couldn't give them direction even if he wanted.

I don't want to give Benioff and Weiss too much credit, but they probably wanted to scrap Dorne and the Iron Islands, but had to put them in because Winds of Winter was never released.
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:18 PM   #11583
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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A lot of the problems in S5 are problems in the books, though. I mean, the book rankings look like

B3>B1>B2>>>>>>>>B5>B4

or so?

Everything after the events of the 3rd book, in both the show and the books, has been a confused mess. A lot of the new stuff they put in was bad, true, but non-book readers aren't aware just how much bad **** they took out. They got 4 good seasons of TV out of the first 3 books(cutting out very little, only one significant character imo) but 2 monster tomes(like 1800 pages between them) only gave them enough show-worthy material to make one mediocre season.
what I said to ChrisV above. go read the @poorquentyn 7 part series on Quentyn and then tell me how bad ADWD was.

the books aren't bad, they just went to some unexpected places people weren't prepared to go or didn't want to go. many people didn't enjoy reading about the deconstruction of the hero in Quentyn - they would rather have just more Red Weddings. fair enough. but the work was solid.

and, the entire Euron plot is set to explode in the next books. the Iron Islanders plot lines after book 3 laid the foundation for all that.

it's not surprising the show chose not to go there. but certainly it's not the books fault at all that the show suffered.

you can't blame GRRM for this:

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Old 09-20-2017, 03:36 PM   #11584
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

B4 > B5 imo.

I read the poor quentyn stuff a long time ago when NoAGame mentioned it. It's interesting and I enjoy the world building and all, but ADWD is still just not as compelling as the other books. The books aren't bad, but ADWD and AFFC are definitely way worse than books 1-3.

FWIW my major problem with Quentyn was that it's another ****ing fool's errand. AFFC has Asha and Brienne, who I think pretty close to every reader knew was going to fail in their quests. Then we open with Quentyn saying "I'm going to marry Dany" No. No you're not. If almost everyone knew that Brienne wasn't finding Sansa or Arya, then I think 100% of readers knew Quentyn wasn't going to marry Dany.

In a vacuum I like all 3 of the storylines (especially Brienne's), but when you've got all 3 of them together... it's a stretch.

I think the books were necessary, but I'll be very happy when GRRM is back on track to his original "outline" and the plot is moving at a decent pace again.
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Old 09-20-2017, 04:09 PM   #11585
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

sort of nit: we don't start Quentyn with "I'm going to marry Dany". I think this is a more accurate and deeper take than that:

...


As his opening move in Quentyn’s storyline, GRRM elects to rip a gigantic hole in it, disorienting the reader along with the protagonist right from the start. Quent’s first chapter in ASOIAF is not set in Yronwood, where his story “should” begin; nor is it set in Sunspear, receiving his mission from his father; nor is it set in Planky Town, as he sets out on his quest. It is set in Volantis, after Team Quent has already passed through all those others. Why structure it this way? Why open the story on what really ought to be the fifth or sixth chapter? So GRRM could start said story like this:

Quote:
Adventure stank.
It’s the most meta moment in the series’ most meta storyline. Indeed, it’s a huge sick hilarious fourth-wall-breaking (and heartbreaking) joke, once you know how this story ends. But it’s also Quentyn’s story in miniature. Even more than, say, “he drank his way across the narrow sea,” the opening line of “The Merchant’s Man” throws down a gauntlet for the reader, setting the tone for the rest of the storyline. This adventure is not empowering or exciting or, indeed, successful. This adventure stinks. And what does it stink of?

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She boasted sixty oars, a single sail, and a long lean hull that promised speed. Small, but she might serve, Quentyn thought when he saw her, but that was before he went aboard and got a good whiff of her. Pigs, was his first thought, but after a second sniff he changed his mind. Pigs had a cleaner smell. This stink was piss and rotting meat and nightsoil, this was the reek of corpse flesh and weeping sores and wounds gone bad, so strong that it overwhelmed the salt air and fish smell of the harbor.
It stinks of death, that winged chariot which has already visited Quent’s quest before we even meet him, the maw waiting for him at quest’s end. Quent’s death is so horrific you can smell it a book away. It haunts his entire story from the very first words. It’s the end result of every twist of the plot, every decision Quent makes, rendering the experience of reading Quent’s arc the equivalent of watching a dog-eared storybook set suddenly on fire.

For even before we enter Quentyn’s story, his best friend (Cletus Yronwood) and two of his other companions (Willam Wells and Maester Kedry) are dead, killed in a corsair attack. So the quest is broken before it starts. It’s already all gone wrong, and we have no experience of Quent’s story before that happens. Quentyn’s fantasy tale has torn off its mask and revealed itself as a horror story, and the trapdoors just keep opening up beneath him, falling closer to the fire with each drop. This is a Hero’s Journey in which the Refusal of the Call was absolutely correct, which in and of itself constitutes a radical reshaping of how this sort of story is supposed to go.

...

I didn't pick up on any of that when I read it either. I very much doubt D&D understand any of this and am not surprised at all by them excluding it

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Old 09-20-2017, 06:44 PM   #11586
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

The fact that grrm was engaged in another of his trope deconstructions does not make the quentyn subplot any less boring or any more relevant to the main storyline.

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Old 09-20-2017, 07:03 PM   #11587
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

Mark me in the enjoyed AFFC a lot category. Calling it ASOIF's The Wire S2 is pretty spot on
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:28 PM   #11588
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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what I said to ChrisV above. go read the @poorquentyn 7 part series on Quentyn and then tell me how bad ADWD was.
I read ADWD, I know how bad it was. Based on the part you quoted, uh, huh, no. ONE discursive rambling plotline as metacommentary I could buy, but Quentyn was just the worst of several. GRRM lost his internal editor(or, possibly, his external editor when his assistant left to go write the Expanse) and fell in love with his world.

I absolutely deny that entire reading as fanboy nonsense, and as evidence I would present that guy's insufferable ****ing writing style and also the rest of his blog which is defending other parts of ADWD.

That **** reeks of a guy who has never read a real ****ing book in his life, moved from typical genre trash(Harry Potter, Robert Jordan, Weis&Hickman, Star Trek books, whatever) to GRRM and was blown away(common reaction among nerds of that age!), but then just stopped.

Quote:
the books aren't bad, they just went to some unexpected places people weren't prepared to go or didn't want to go. many people didn't enjoy reading about the deconstruction of the hero in Quentyn - they would rather have just more Red Weddings. fair enough. but the work was solid.
I don't care if he was trying to be boring or accidentally was boring, what I care about is that it was boring as hell. That's why they cut all those parts out of the show and tried to replace them with original content, which mostly failed for reasons that elude me. They had like FIVE YEARS to think about this ****.


Quote:
and, the entire Euron plot is set to explode in the next books. the Iron Islanders plot lines after book 3 laid the foundation for all that.

it's not surprising the show chose not to go there. but certainly it's not the books fault at all that the show suffered.

you can't blame GRRM for this:

Yeah I can, there should never have been a Dorne plotline at all. Completely pointless in the books, equally pointless but chopped down to a disjointed weird truncated story that probably just confused inattentive non-book reading viewers in the show.

One of the issues with B4+ vs. S5+ is that for better or worse, the later books are awash in world building and exploration. GRRM clearly loves Westeros, he loves every part of it, he loves telling us about the impossibly detailed meals that unimportant characters have. So the failings of the plot and character in the later books was, for some readers, outweighed or at least balanced a bit by the richness of the soup and pie they were served every single chapter.


The show doesn't have that, it can't have that. All it has is plot and characters. And ever since Tyrion left King's Landing, those have been bad.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:28 PM   #11589
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

I enjoyed Feast of Dragons, but I'll never argue that they didn't drop in quality. Personally I enjoyed the addition of so many characters but that also hurt the quality of books and show.

It's not a coincidence Storm of Swords is the best and also the one he wrote the fastest
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Old Yesterday, 09:01 AM   #11590
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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... or any more relevant to the main storyline.
"the main storyline", such as it exists, is the return of magic to the world (in the form of demons from the force coming to destroy humanity + the return of dragons) that is blissfully ignored by most people as they squabble about other matters. Quentyn as as relevant to that as many other bits are.


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Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post

I absolutely deny that entire reading as fanboy nonsense, and as evidence I would present that guy's insufferable ****ing writing style and also the rest of his blog which is defending other parts of ADWD.
the evidence that he's nonsense is that fact that you think he's nonsense

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Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
That **** reeks of a guy who has never read a real ****ing book in his life, moved from typical genre trash(Harry Potter, Robert Jordan, Weis&Hickman, Star Trek books, whatever) to GRRM and was blown away(common reaction among nerds of that age!), but then just stopped.
to the extent you're not just trolling and actually care:

Quote:
I came to the series as a horror fanboy, having loved George R.R. Martin’s work in that area while being generally skeptical of high fantasy; I had grown increasingly bored of the genre’s calcified tropes.
Quote:
(I haven't read much fantasy). My roots are in horror, and that still dominates my tastes. For the record, my favorite horror movie is The Shining followed closely by Alien, and my favorite horror novel is House of Leaves
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Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
...and tried to replace them with original content, which mostly failed for reasons that elude me. They had like FIVE YEARS to think about this ****.
the reason is incredibly simple. D&D aren't very good at this.


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there should never have been a Dorne plotline at all. Completely pointless in the books
"completely pointless" is objectively wrong. You just didn't care about the point, or didn't understand the point.
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Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM   #11591
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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sort of nit: we don't start Quentyn with "I'm going to marry Dany". I think this is a more accurate and deeper take than that:
Doran introduces us to him as a major player in this game by saying he's going to bring Dany back to Westeros in a conversation which largely suggests this will happen via marriage. In Quentyn's first pov chapter he says that he's going to marry Dany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
"the main storyline", such as it exists, is the return of magic to the world (in the form of demons from the force coming to destroy humanity + the return of dragons) that is blissfully ignored by most people as they squabble about other matters. Quentyn as as relevant to that as many other bits are.
I don't really think this is right. This is largely happening in the background and becoming more and more prevalent but it's not the main storyline imo.




Anyone know if GRRM has commented in this latest season?
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Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM   #11592
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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"the main storyline", such as it exists, is the return of magic to the world (in the form of demons from the force coming to destroy humanity + the return of dragons) that is blissfully ignored by most people as they squabble about other matters. Quentyn as as relevant to that as many other bits are.
The title of the series is "A Song of Ice and Fire". The main storyline is about the CONFLICT between the returned magical forces, not just the return of magic. And Quentyn did **** all to advance any of that, as the only supernatural part of his storyline was the very very end.

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the evidence that he's nonsense is that fact that you think he's nonsense
His breathless, florid writing style is evidence that his literary critique skills don't extend to writing a readable blog.


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to the extent you're not just trolling and actually care:
Horror novels are also genre trash.

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"completely pointless" is objectively wrong. You just didn't care about the point, or didn't understand the point.
If "completely pointless" was "objectively wrong" your next sentence wouldn't BEEN the point.
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Old Yesterday, 04:35 PM   #11593
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

Fly you seem to have this weird bifurcated take that Stephen King is trash, but there better be lightsabers to entertain you in every chapter, bc otherwise a book might be BORING.

re: lack of the advancing the supernatural in his plotline, I don't understand what you're saying. the same could be said for tons of characters. the political and magical plotlines don't always intersect.
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Old Yesterday, 05:09 PM   #11594
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

Yes, there are way too many characters in the books. It was originally conceived as a trilogy, and as the scope has expanded he has lost control of his story.

That's the primary critique! GRRM has wasted the audience's time with world building, obvious red herrings, and generally just timekilling nonsense for the past 2 books. The show has tried to remedy that by coming up with whatever using the outline he gave them and their own meager talents, but the core issue is that the story as a whole should already be over. It was originally conceived as a TRILOGY for God's sake.
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Old Yesterday, 07:17 PM   #11595
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

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Yes, there are way too many characters in the books. It was originally conceived as a trilogy, and as the scope has expanded he has lost control of his story.
I think, for now, these are premature critiques. You can't determine "there are too many characters" when you don't know how the story ends and where those characters go.

Re: the fact that the story has ballooned - ok? I find it hard to ding GRRM for not coming with a perfect master plan for this entire story before he even put pen to paper. by the end of AGOT he knew it wasn't going to be a trilogy anymore, so I think your specific point is well off base. The story became much bigger than his initial 2 page outline suggested, and that's what happens. that's totally OK. plans change.

he realized the 5 year gap wouldn't work. so he screwed that up. ok? so he had to change plans. I just find it hard to crucify the guy for realizing his original plan from 20 years ago was not 100% ideal and needed changes.
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 PM   #11596
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

I can't remember if we've already had this argument itt or if that was r/asoiaf. The effect of Quentyn on the larger plot could be summarised in one sentence yet it takes up a pile of space and several POV characters. We can judge his plotline already, he's dead. His inclusion was not the result of the story organically growing - it's unnecessarily tacked on. The fact that it's a trope deconstruction, even if it were interesting (which I don't think it is) that doesn't justify its inclusion in a story that is already starting to meander and lose focus.

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Old Yesterday, 08:46 PM   #11597
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Re: Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT***

at the highest level, "it doesn't move the plot forward!" is a bad criticism. it doesn't move the plot forward, as you define the plot. GRRM has a wider vision of what the plot actually is than you do. this doesn't mean it's "unnecessary" any more than Euron is unnecessary or any other character who could have been cut out (hell, that could be almost anybody).

He's part of GRRM's plot. specifically, this means many things. do you not care about the depiction of Astapor as hell, and how horrible it's gone there?

Quote:
The Yunkai’i had sealed the broken gates to keep the dead and dying inside the city, but the sights that he had seen riding down those red brick streets would haunt Quentyn Martell forever. A river choked with corpses. The priestess in her torn robes, impaled upon a stake and attended by a cloud of glistening green flies. Dying men staggering through the streets, bloody and befouled. Children fighting over half-cooked puppies. The last free king of Astapor, screaming naked in the pit as he was set on by a score of starving dogs. And fires, fires everywhere. He could close his eyes and see them still: flames whirling from brick pyramids larger than any castle he had ever seen, plumes of greasy smoke coiling upward like great black snakes.
ok? but it's all part of the story. it's just bizarre for you to pick and choose which parts of the story are advancement or not, when it's all interestingworld building and interesting character creation. if you don't care about this, or genre deconstruction, or meta commentary, etc, ok, that's fine, but then this isn't the series for you. I don't read Hamlet :shrug:

and finally: for all the fear and loathing about Quentyn, he has 4 POV chapters in a massive book. the same as Davos and Barristan. it's actually a very stripped down story compared to what GRRM could have done, but for specific reasons related to the above, didn't do

Last edited by Kneel B4 Zod; Yesterday at 09:08 PM.
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