I'd put this season and last season ahead of season 5. That season left such a bad taste in my mouth and they butchered Dorne

No I haven't read the books. Deff interested in them but the fact that they might never get finished scares me. I'll probably wait until it's certain that the series will get finished .

Yeah there's deff a huge dropoff in quality after S4. I didn't read the books so things getting butchered doesn't impact me, but the plot got more messy for sure. Is S5 where they started departing from the books more & more? Would explain a lot. I agree that purely from a "stuff not being terrible"-POV S7 was the strongest season from S05-07, but just didn't like a lot of the content.

Most of season 5 is broadly in line with the books, as much as it can be given all the plots that were altered and left out etc. The Stannis plot goes further than the books. Season 6 is virtually all advancing beyond the books.

The problems with season 5 (which I still think is way better than 6 or 7) more or less stem from the books, not because what's on screen is what was written, but because of the major surgery they needed to perform to get rid of a bunch of interminable plotlines from books 4 and 5. hair loss's claim that the show "butchered Dorne" is a common one from bookreaders. The problem is that what was actually written was the introduction of a whole new cast of largely dull characters, with no hint given of why we should care about any of it, engaged in boring and pointless palace intrigue. If they'd filmed it as written, GOT might not have got a sixth season.

this is a common take and I've come to appreciate that it's wrong. Now that we have a long time before the next season and book, I challenge you to read @poorquentyns take on Quentyn Martell. It's 7 parts and long but is a wonderful defense and explanation for a much panned character and entire storyline. It gives you a much better understanding of (part) of what GRRM was doing in ADWD.

but all that said, I get why this storyline was cut from the show. not bc it was bad, but bc it was far too sprawling and complex given the limits of the show

This is pretty close to mine but I'd do it more like this:

S1>S3>S2>S4>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>S6>S7>S5.

As soon as the show writers didn't have Martin to hold their hand (starting S5) the results were obvious. Martin isn't perfect, the books have flawed parts but no where near to the degree we have seen in seasons 5-7 of the show.

A lot of the problems in S5 are problems in the books, though. I mean, the book rankings look like

B3>B1>B2>>>>>>>>B5>B4

or so?

Everything after the events of the 3rd book, in both the show and the books, has been a confused mess. A lot of the new stuff they put in was bad, true, but non-book readers aren't aware just how much bad **** they took out. They got 4 good seasons of TV out of the first 3 books(cutting out very little, only one significant character imo) but 2 monster tomes(like 1800 pages between them) only gave them enough show-worthy material to make one mediocre season.

I think apart from the first half of Book 5 (especially the first Dany and Tyrion chapters), the books are fine. After rereading the series twice, I actually think Book 4 is to ASOIAF what S2 is to the Wire.

The problem is that Martin seems to be unable to tie up all the threads. That's why the show suffered because I think he couldn't give them direction even if he wanted.

I don't want to give Benioff and Weiss too much credit, but they probably wanted to scrap Dorne and the Iron Islands, but had to put them in because Winds of Winter was never released.

what I said to ChrisV above. go read the @poorquentyn 7 part series on Quentyn and then tell me how bad ADWD was.

the books aren't bad, they just went to some unexpected places people weren't prepared to go or didn't want to go. many people didn't enjoy reading about the deconstruction of the hero in Quentyn - they would rather have just more Red Weddings. fair enough. but the work was solid.

and, the entire Euron plot is set to explode in the next books. the Iron Islanders plot lines after book 3 laid the foundation for all that.

it's not surprising the show chose not to go there. but certainly it's not the books fault at all that the show suffered.

you can't blame GRRM for this:

B4 > B5 imo.

I read the poor quentyn stuff a long time ago when NoAGame mentioned it. It's interesting and I enjoy the world building and all, but ADWD is still just not as compelling as the other books. The books aren't bad, but ADWD and AFFC are definitely way worse than books 1-3.

FWIW my major problem with Quentyn was that it's another ****ing fool's errand. AFFC has Asha and Brienne, who I think pretty close to every reader knew was going to fail in their quests. Then we open with Quentyn saying "I'm going to marry Dany" No. No you're not. If almost everyone knew that Brienne wasn't finding Sansa or Arya, then I think 100% of readers knew Quentyn wasn't going to marry Dany.

In a vacuum I like all 3 of the storylines (especially Brienne's), but when you've got all 3 of them together... it's a stretch.

I think the books were necessary, but I'll be very happy when GRRM is back on track to his original "outline" and the plot is moving at a decent pace again.

sort of nit: we don't start Quentyn with "I'm going to marry Dany". I think this is a more accurate and deeper take than that:

...


As his opening move in Quentyn’s storyline, GRRM elects to rip a gigantic hole in it, disorienting the reader along with the protagonist right from the start. Quent’s first chapter in ASOIAF is not set in Yronwood, where his story “should” begin; nor is it set in Sunspear, receiving his mission from his father; nor is it set in Planky Town, as he sets out on his quest. It is set in Volantis, after Team Quent has already passed through all those others. Why structure it this way? Why open the story on what really ought to be the fifth or sixth chapter? So GRRM could start said story like this:

It’s the most meta moment in the series’ most meta storyline. Indeed, it’s a huge sick hilarious fourth-wall-breaking (and heartbreaking) joke, once you know how this story ends. But it’s also Quentyn’s story in miniature. Even more than, say, “he drank his way across the narrow sea,” the opening line of “The Merchant’s Man” throws down a gauntlet for the reader, setting the tone for the rest of the storyline. This adventure is not empowering or exciting or, indeed, successful. This adventure stinks. And what does it stink of?

It stinks of death, that winged chariot which has already visited Quent’s quest before we even meet him, the maw waiting for him at quest’s end. Quent’s death is so horrific you can smell it a book away. It haunts his entire story from the very first words. It’s the end result of every twist of the plot, every decision Quent makes, rendering the experience of reading Quent’s arc the equivalent of watching a dog-eared storybook set suddenly on fire.

For even before we enter Quentyn’s story, his best friend (Cletus Yronwood) and two of his other companions (Willam Wells and Maester Kedry) are dead, killed in a corsair attack. So the quest is broken before it starts. It’s already all gone wrong, and we have no experience of Quent’s story before that happens. Quentyn’s fantasy tale has torn off its mask and revealed itself as a horror story, and the trapdoors just keep opening up beneath him, falling closer to the fire with each drop. This is a Hero’s Journey in which the Refusal of the Call was absolutely correct, which in and of itself constitutes a radical reshaping of how this sort of story is supposed to go.

...

I didn't pick up on any of that when I read it either. I very much doubt D&D understand any of this and am not surprised at all by them excluding it

The fact that grrm was engaged in another of his trope deconstructions does not make the quentyn subplot any less boring or any more relevant to the main storyline.

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Mark me in the enjoyed AFFC a lot category. Calling it ASOIF's The Wire S2 is pretty spot on

I read ADWD, I know how bad it was. Based on the part you quoted, uh, huh, no. ONE discursive rambling plotline as metacommentary I could buy, but Quentyn was just the worst of several. GRRM lost his internal editor(or, possibly, his external editor when his assistant left to go write the Expanse) and fell in love with his world.

I absolutely deny that entire reading as fanboy nonsense, and as evidence I would present that guy's insufferable ****ing writing style and also the rest of his blog which is defending other parts of ADWD.

That **** reeks of a guy who has never read a real ****ing book in his life, moved from typical genre trash(Harry Potter, Robert Jordan, Weis&Hickman, Star Trek books, whatever) to GRRM and was blown away(common reaction among nerds of that age!), but then just stopped.

I don't care if he was trying to be boring or accidentally was boring, what I care about is that it was boring as hell. That's why they cut all those parts out of the show and tried to replace them with original content, which mostly failed for reasons that elude me. They had like FIVE YEARS to think about this ****.


Yeah I can, there should never have been a Dorne plotline at all. Completely pointless in the books, equally pointless but chopped down to a disjointed weird truncated story that probably just confused inattentive non-book reading viewers in the show.

One of the issues with B4+ vs. S5+ is that for better or worse, the later books are awash in world building and exploration. GRRM clearly loves Westeros, he loves every part of it, he loves telling us about the impossibly detailed meals that unimportant characters have. So the failings of the plot and character in the later books was, for some readers, outweighed or at least balanced a bit by the richness of the soup and pie they were served every single chapter.


The show doesn't have that, it can't have that. All it has is plot and characters. And ever since Tyrion left King's Landing, those have been bad.

I enjoyed Feast of Dragons, but I'll never argue that they didn't drop in quality. Personally I enjoyed the addition of so many characters but that also hurt the quality of books and show.

It's not a coincidence Storm of Swords is the best and also the one he wrote the fastest

"the main storyline", such as it exists, is the return of magic to the world (in the form of demons from the force coming to destroy humanity + the return of dragons) that is blissfully ignored by most people as they squabble about other matters. Quentyn as as relevant to that as many other bits are.


the evidence that he's nonsense is that fact that you think he's nonsense

to the extent you're not just trolling and actually care:

the reason is incredibly simple. D&D aren't very good at this.


"completely pointless" is objectively wrong. You just didn't care about the point, or didn't understand the point.

Doran introduces us to him as a major player in this game by saying he's going to bring Dany back to Westeros in a conversation which largely suggests this will happen via marriage. In Quentyn's first pov chapter he says that he's going to marry Dany.

I don't really think this is right. This is largely happening in the background and becoming more and more prevalent but it's not the main storyline imo.




Anyone know if GRRM has commented in this latest season?

The title of the series is "A Song of Ice and Fire". The main storyline is about the CONFLICT between the returned magical forces, not just the return of magic. And Quentyn did **** all to advance any of that, as the only supernatural part of his storyline was the very very end.

His breathless, florid writing style is evidence that his literary critique skills don't extend to writing a readable blog.


Horror novels are also genre trash.

If "completely pointless" was "objectively wrong" your next sentence wouldn't BEEN the point.

Fly you seem to have this weird bifurcated take that Stephen King is trash, but there better be lightsabers to entertain you in every chapter, bc otherwise a book might be BORING.

re: lack of the advancing the supernatural in his plotline, I don't understand what you're saying. the same could be said for tons of characters. the political and magical plotlines don't always intersect.

Yes, there are way too many characters in the books. It was originally conceived as a trilogy, and as the scope has expanded he has lost control of his story.

That's the primary critique! GRRM has wasted the audience's time with world building, obvious red herrings, and generally just timekilling nonsense for the past 2 books. The show has tried to remedy that by coming up with whatever using the outline he gave them and their own meager talents, but the core issue is that the story as a whole should already be over. It was originally conceived as a TRILOGY for God's sake.

I think, for now, these are premature critiques. You can't determine "there are too many characters" when you don't know how the story ends and where those characters go.

Re: the fact that the story has ballooned - ok? I find it hard to ding GRRM for not coming with a perfect master plan for this entire story before he even put pen to paper. by the end of AGOT he knew it wasn't going to be a trilogy anymore, so I think your specific point is well off base. The story became much bigger than his initial 2 page outline suggested, and that's what happens. that's totally OK. plans change.

he realized the 5 year gap wouldn't work. so he screwed that up. ok? so he had to change plans. I just find it hard to crucify the guy for realizing his original plan from 20 years ago was not 100% ideal and needed changes.

I can't remember if we've already had this argument itt or if that was r/asoiaf. The effect of Quentyn on the larger plot could be summarised in one sentence yet it takes up a pile of space and several POV characters. We can judge his plotline already, he's dead. His inclusion was not the result of the story organically growing - it's unnecessarily tacked on. The fact that it's a trope deconstruction, even if it were interesting (which I don't think it is) that doesn't justify its inclusion in a story that is already starting to meander and lose focus.

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at the highest level, "it doesn't move the plot forward!" is a bad criticism. it doesn't move the plot forward, as you define the plot. GRRM has a wider vision of what the plot actually is than you do. this doesn't mean it's "unnecessary" any more than Euron is unnecessary or any other character who could have been cut out (hell, that could be almost anybody).

He's part of GRRM's plot. specifically, this means many things. do you not care about the depiction of Astapor as hell, and how horrible it's gone there?

ok? but it's all part of the story. it's just bizarre for you to pick and choose which parts of the story are advancement or not, when it's all interestingworld building and interesting character creation. if you don't care about this, or genre deconstruction, or meta commentary, etc, ok, that's fine, but then this isn't the series for you. I don't read Hamlet :shrug:

and finally: for all the fear and loathing about Quentyn, he has 4 POV chapters in a massive book. the same as Davos and Barristan. it's actually a very stripped down story compared to what GRRM could have done, but for specific reasons related to the above, didn't do

Is it bad that I have read the books and had to look up who Quentyn even was and I now vaguely remember him?

I think a lot of people were frustrated by characters like him and skimmed over his parts. so, they are less memorable.

I think the main issue with Quentin was that the chapters he was first in were boring between other "boring" chapters, when we really wanted the main characters. I do think I skimmed the first Quentin chapters too.