Snape is a character in Harry Potter who was framed as the villain throughout the series but turned out to be a self-sacrificing hero.

Also he killed Dumbledore

Is Rhaegar framed as a villain? Not sure that's true even on a casual reading. Robert thinks he's a villain, but Robert is presented as kind of a drunken idiot. Everyone else paints Rhaegar in a good light, as far as I can remember.

he raped Lyanna a bunch of times iirc. #TimesUp

But kidding aside, the first time I read Game of Thrones I think I finished the book thinking that Rhaegar is a bad guy who kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. I definitely 100% didn't think that Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love and had Jon Snow.

Oh yeah, through AGOT that is definitely true. I think it's ASOS where we start to get views on Rhaegar which dissent from Robert's.

Edit: If you're paying attention, you could pick up in AGOT that Ned might not share Robert's views on Rhaegar. It's definitely hard to remember how the books appeared when they weren't overlaid with all this internet speculation though.

I was definitely not paying close enough attention. And it's also kind of hard to separate the books from each other because I read the first four in like a month.

So Bran is in to evens on the Iron Throne betting odds, because the teaser showed statues for Jon, Sansa and Arya in the Winterfell Crypts, and people think this means that the Stark brother who is a psychotic tree-hybrid weirdo with no support and no claim on the throne will somehow win. JLawOK.gif.

Also, death odds:



Theon is a free 50% on your money there, absolutely a lock to have a redemption arc where he sacrifices himself for something or other (his sister, probably). Also think Dany and Arya are value.

Although I'd forgotten there was a betting plunge on Bran for the throne in March last year as well, so maybe it's actually a thing? Find it extremely hard to believe. Also don't care if that turns out to be spoilerish because I assume the show is dead to everyone here if they pull a brain-dead stunt like that.

When I read the books I thought rhaegar was the villain until ASOS, as you said.

What site is that on? Melissandre and Beric look like really good bets at those odds. Not that it surprises me as a book guy, but I'm a little surprised to see Daenerys odds to die so much more likely than Jons.

Also, I'd be considering Bran dying at 3.25.

Daenerys dying has been seemingly foreshadowed in the show as well. Also her death is the only thing that makes narrative sense imo. An ending with Daenerys on the throne is very hard to imagine; it would be a sort of implicit endorsement of her imperialism through Essos, ordering people's children tortured, and so on. The series is clearly making a moral point about Dany's ruthlessness, I don't think the conclusion to that is going to be "but that's how you win, though, so whatcha gonna do?".

At the same time, the singleminded pursuit of the throne is so central to Dany's character that it would be super anticlimactic and strange if she just got cucked at the end and meekly handed her throne to Jon. Would be a bizarre character arc; oh look this beaten-down younger sister rose to power and glory on the back of her sheer force of will, actually BOOM nope hand over the throne *****.

So if Dany can't get the throne, and Dany can't change her mind, the only other option is that she dies. That's why I think it's pretty clear Dany is going to die in both show and books.

Re the odds just go to oddschecker or whatever, there are a few books offering lines.

I guess you could try to stick the landing on an ending where Dany does get the throne, and is still sort of presented heroically, superficially, but the subtext that she is actually a tyrant gets clearer and clearer. That would be a strange ending. Not sure if you could make that work or not.

Well but GRRM has said that the ending would be bittersweet, so to me that makes me think that Jon and Danny share the Iron Throne or something. If Danny dies and Jon gets the throne that's just sweet. Zero downside.

Well it seems pretty obv that her and Jon are hooking up (in books as well as show) so her dying would be bitter to Jon. And we're still supposed to like Dany, despite everything.

well, she'd be the best ruler of Westeros since?
(better than Mad King, Robert, Joff, Tommen - good kid but too weak, Cersei)


Jon becoming king would be weird, and ironic, given that he doesn't want the job

I want Tyrion and Sanza

i could see that

though they seem to be holstering the possibility of a storyline where Tyrion back-stabs Dany, which would be aids, even if it's in conjunction with Jamie back-stabbing Cersei (or front-stabbing?) #thequeenslayerbros
it would require Jon to die iyam
and for Sansa & Tyrion to just be shamelessly chasing power? awful


need Arya to strap on Littlefinger or Jamie's face and kill the Mountain & Cersei anyway
or for Jamie to take out Cersei

and/or Jamie/Cersei/Tyrion are gonna learn that they're all Targs or something

Hmmmmm...good point. How about Jon blows a baby into Danny. Danny dies in childbirth but pops out a live son first. Jon has a sad and goes back to renew his duties as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Jamie kills Cersei before she does the wildfire like the crazy ***** she is. Sanza and Tyrion consummate their marriage and Sanza is Regent and Tyrion is Hand of the King for little Rhaegar, first of his name.

edit:

yeah, something like that

i don't really like Dany or anything, but i also don't dislike her
Cersei is clearly aids, Mad Queen sociopath

Only bittersweet if you like Danny, which, apparently some people do. I'd be sadder if Cersei dies. At least Cersei is interesting. And I think Jamie will die as well if he kills Cersei, either by Tommening himself or some other way. So that's bittersweet, doesn't get to get with Brienne.

Hot take: Cersei is basically just Dany as brought up by Tywin Lannister.

But then in my scenario who is the Stark in Winterfell? Does Arya get with Ser Gendry and start cranking out Starklets? Is Rickon dead in the books? If so then either Arya or Sanza has to get up in Winterfell and start making Stark babies.