In the 4th or 5th book Loras goes to Dragonstone to take it back from Stannis forces and is supposedly badly injured and dying.

Ah gotcha, never knew that.

Yeah but a lot of that story doesn't make sense. To begin with it's told to Cersei by some guy who ends up betraying her. I forget all the details but Loras takes a ridiculous amount of injuries, the token force left by Stannis manages to kill 1000 men, and some other questionable stuff.

A lot more going on with the Tyrells, the High Septon and Cersei than in the show.

I heard an endgame theory last night that I think is the most credible one I've come across so far. Forgive me if this has been posted (I know at least part of it has) but I don't have time to read the whole thread.

Dany and Jon win their wars but then Dany dies (that seems to be popular consensus) either through betrayal, assassination, or during childbirth. Jon abdicates, has the iron throne destroyed, and creates a Westeros Democracy consisting of heads of state like Tyrion, Sansa, Tormund, etc...

nah, that feels way, way too storybook.

sounds like an obvious possibility for the lolshow, but i doubt georgie had this in mind.

If that is "bittersweet" then grrm is really overestimating the affection his readers have towards Dany.

What would be the Westeros dream team if that did happen?

Eerie: Sansa
Casterly Rock: Jaime (post redemption)
Kings Landing: Tyrion
Stormlands: Gendry (with Arya obv)
Riverlands: Edmure?
Reach: Fatwell (with Jilly)
Dorne: ???????
Iron Islands: Yara (with Reek as her cuck)
North: Jon (with Lyanna Mormont)
Beyond what used to be the wall: Tormund (with Bribri)

Shes a top 3 important character what more are you expecting for the bitter part? That said I think Arya dying and warging into nymeria is a lock for books. I've been somewhat surprised by jon death prediction over Dany by a couple of youtube channels (for the show). Doesn't killing Jon again (and having him stay dead) seem a little gratuitous at this point? I honestly wouldn't be shocked if neither Jon or Dany die. The show's version of "bittersweet" will probably be a bunch of secondary characters dying.

"Important" and "liked" are not the same thing. There'd be a very large portion of his fan base who would be happy to have Dany die.

I agree that wouldn't cut it for bittersweet for me. There has to be more tragedy.

I think you're overestimating how many readers think like you. Sure if we took a poll ITT Dany wouldn't be liked as much as other tier 1 characters, but is this thread really a good representation of average bookreaders? It's more than her just being important, shes been the chosen one since book 1, her dying would be definitely be jarring enough to make the ending "bittersweet" to the average reader imo.

I have no problem with Dany as a character, more that her plotline has been stalled. It's less that I think the majority of readers hate her (although a lot do) it's more that there isn't a single character who is THAT liked in the series for me. I can't think of a single character, even Tyrion who is my favorite, that I'd say "Wow this ending would be so happy if he were just alive! But because he's not, it's a bittersweet ending."

Between a good portion of GRRM's audience not liking Dany, (not just basing this off of my opinion, but several boards, videos, blogs etc which I do think is a good sample of the average book reader) there being so many other characters to choose from, and also the fate of the 7 kingdoms being a very important part to the series, I think that any bittersweet ending needs to be far more bitter than just counting on one, or even several, character's deaths.

My personal guess is that the series ends with the fate of the 7 kingdoms very uncertain, which reaches far further than just not all of the main characters making it to the end.



edit: Also fwiw I think it'd be a bit of hubris on GRRM's part to think he can write a character who will be so universally liked that by killing her off at the end it will have such a huge impact on the ending when he's got this large of a cast.

'Bittersweet' means something different for everyone. GRRM calls the end of Lord of the Rings 'bitterweet' when I would consider it a happy ending. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Others being defeated at the cost of Dany, Jon, or both is his definition of 'bittersweet'

The main character of LOTR is Frodo. Would you call his ending a happy one?

A bittersweet ending would be defeating the bad guys, with an aftermath (not necessarily death) that is unpleasant for at least some of our favorite characters. A bittersweet ending could be Jon and Dany falling in love and one of them ending up on the Iron Throne while having to marry someone else for political reasons while the other ends up in exile. Maybe the White Walkers can only be defeated by recreating the Doom of Valyria at Winterfell.

Frodo going to another land to live in peace and arguably live forever I would call happy

But I was talking from a reader perspective, as was Martin. Not a character perspective

LOTR didn't exactly have a Red Wedding.

Bittersweet is the perfect word to describe the ending of LotR. Yeah, Frodo gets to live with the elves in paradise forever, but it’s because he’s such a mess of PTSD that he can’t return to life in the Shire. Sam marries Rosie and becomes mayor, but loses his BFF. Gandalf’s quote at their parting is very bittersweet.

Pretty certain Martin specifically cited Frodo's ending in LOTR as an example of what he was talking about when he said bittersweet. It's the obvious example, it's a great ending imo.

Also I think Jon Snow's ending will be some variant on that. He'll survive the series and probably end up in some ruling capacity, but he'll have some heavy cross to bear for life.

It's only slightly bittersweet though. GRRM tends to do things a little differently in that regard. I am expecting something substantial although Danys death would definitely count in that regard.

Turner said next season will debut in 2019.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game...te-1202632602/

I imagine HBO is doing this so that Martin can get TWoW out first /s

I really wish Dany just died with Drogo. Her scenes are like the 90% of Walking Dead that just drags on and makes you wonder "why am I watching this?" Her only perk at this point are dragons. Even half man started to suck as a character while being around her. She's contagious with the crappy storylines it seems as the Spider isn't very interesting anymore either. How dope would it be if she gets eaten by her own dragon that's now the ice dragon lol.

I wish her story paused after Astapor then picked up again when she was launching to Westeros.


TWOW:

new alt shift x is out. havent heard it yet.