War in this game doesn't mean going all cowboys and indians type of shootouts. It's 100% about stealth and careful planning, hitting people where they don't expect it. It would be pretty tough for Nucky to use any of Chalky's thugs in an era where black folk stick out like sore thumbs simply due to prejudice

Thats not at all how the show has developed this conflict. There have been constant references to manpower, owen asked eli if the men would be very useful in a fight when gyp first confronted them at the gas station and the entire (ongoing) plot of where nucky will find soldiers.

I think history disagrees with you as well.

Has there been any explanation of how rosetti and luciano arent forced to side with nucky? Even if they do have enough influence with joe do they really gyp isnt going to go after them at some point?

I wouldn't put too much weight into what Means says fwiw, especially when there is a gun pointed at him

I don't know, I still think while this show may have some nuance and ambiguity from time to time, it will sooner than later spell everything out for you. Take Billy-Nucky relationship. How can you think that she genuinely cared for him for most of the season? She would flirt with other rich/powerful man right in front of his face, would disappear for days, did not deny that she was banging dudes on the side, did not allow him to know who they were and numerous times she declined his proposal to be be in an exclusive relationship... I mean these things i am pretty sure are there, and I don't see how they can be read other than though she may have enjoyed Nucky's company, she valued her freedom and didn't really care for him, like he cared for her. I am also pretty sure that he indeed provided for her (or it is strongly implied) and got her a job too.

I think the feelings between Nucky/Margaret are portrayed as more complicated than he cares for her/doesn't care, and I think the viewer is meant to believe that on some level he will always care for her.

I mean Chalky is the guy who is in charge of all black folks in that community. Nucky is in dire need of some man power and he is trying to get some back up from Chicago, after everyone abandoned him. A likely reasonable conclusion to this conflict between Chalky and Nucky is a rift between them, which would tie into the plot and cause some problems for Nucky (otherwise what the **** is the purpose of that scene?). The point is, if Nucky was truly a skilled diplomat, he would avoid needless antagonism and needless problems.

The lack of exclusivity in the relationship is what I feel comes with the territory. She knows his situation with Margaret and the kids, which probably made her feel like an exclusive relationship was not so likely. In that scene where you believe she randomly fell in love with him, she says she doesn't care that he's a gangster, but just wants him to be "my gangster." I don't think the lack of exclusivity means that they can't care deeply for each other.

I guess I just saw numerous scenes where I felt the opposite. He came to her place one night when she wasn't there and fell asleep. He wakes up to her making breakfast, and tells her his true fear of being alone. She responds with "well you're not alone now," and they embrace in a way that we have never seen from Nucky. As cold and calculating as he is, his moments with Billy are the only time he seems human, and it is just impossible imo that she doesn't return the same feelings at least significantly

I guess my main point should be that if you believe she "randomly fell in love with him after beating up that guy," that doesn't fall in line with her not really caring for him prior

This is true, and the kids certainly have a lot to do with that. It's pretty hard to tell what will come of their situation, but the immense amount of protection and repeated checking in from a distance shows that they are indeed important to him

Again I think this has to do with the racial inequality of the times. If black folk were easily accepted anywhere and everywhere, I feel confident that this whole scene goes down differently. I don't think Chalky's men are very valuable as manpower, and it would raise a lot of suspicion if they were congregating in unusual areas. The bathhouse coup to take down Masseria would not have been an option with Chalky's men, regardless of skill

Well the circumstances were a little different then. Nucky believed he would have the backing of other high level bosses, who have now shown their fear of the situation. Obviously having the support of Chalky is a good thing, but Nucky cannot have his number one support coming from that direction. It would simply hamstring him too much in a situation where his back is already against a wall; he needs white soldiers, badly

I was going to post something similar. Nucky knows that long term he not only needs to defeat Gyp but get Rothstein, etc. to side with him again. Given the racism in the time, I am not sure that Nucky wants to be seen as having to resort to using black muscle.

Also, I think one thing the show has consistently shown, is that muscle is only helpful if loyal (the scense were Maserea says that his guys are loyal and then the scene where Owen says that Nucky's men are worthless in a fight). I don't think that Nucky would be able to truly rely on Chalky and his men to be willing to die for him.

Owen said that? do you remember which episode?

My recollection is from the episode where Gyp initially took over Taber Heights and told Owen and Eli that there was no gas. I thought Owen then made a comment which indicated that he wouldn't trust Nucky's men in a fight.

Owen asked eli if they would be good in a fight if i remember correctly.

Ah right. Yea Nucky's men are Nucky's men because they get paid to be. I doubt there is any loyalty at all beyond Eli. The way Mickey was looking to Owen for thoughts on a direct order from Nucky, right in front of him, was ridiculous. Actually I find it ridiculous that Nucky even has Mickey working for him, I would not have that guy anywhere near any operation, let alone at a mid level position

I actually like Joe the boss more than Nucky, anybody with me?

Gyp is obv a POS tho.

Cliffs- the main character of this show sucks and what we see on screen is not remotely close to how we are supposed to view him.

Gyp 2012

Ya, he's got that swag

Seriously though, I wouldn't mind seeing Nucky getting killed off like Jimmy, and have Joe the boss, Capone, Rothstein, Luciano, and the boys running the show, but that's obv never happening. I just find them much more interesting than Nucky.

Mickey is such a dumbass. Like Eli said, it's amazing he's still alive.

I like Cannavale playing the over the top Gyp now. I didn't like him at first, but he grew on me.

I've started rooting for Eli this season. Something about the bond that only family has, even if they fuked up in the past. Nucky must be feeling like he's all alone at this point in the season. I'm so glad Harrow found love, but I wonder if it won't end well... I'm hoping they take off with Tommy and leave AC, but I'm sure that won't happen.

Oh and Stephen Root is amazing.

Yep that was his plan, he loves to play people against each other and profit from it.
He could just deny telling him anything if it came to that. He seems pretty smart so I would guess he has a back up plan for most scenarios.

Makes sense, since his VERY FIRST SCENE wasn't that he beat a guy to death over "what else could it be?"

Guiness commercial should have been done as Harrow. We'd all be snap buying cases. Can't say I really like the alter-ego. Hope he keeps the mask and voice for every future acting job.

episode summed up in one gif:



if the finale isn't the best thing ever, they've sure fooled me

"We been on the road 18 hours. I need a bath....some chow....then you and me sit down. We talk about who dies." CAPOOOOOONNNNEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy ****, that was incredible.

Omfg yes

That was amazing

The way Lansky had to tell Luciano what happened to Owen makes me wonder what the hell he whispered to Massaria last week now if that wasn't it.

what more can you want from a TV show? So awesome. I'm not particularly ADD for this show, but looks like 2 straight weeks without boring politcal stuff and Margaret! (I think she might have been in the preview though)

That last line with Capone was great, and when Chalky's men get to do work its's always gold. He finally felt like he fit an episode.