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Old 09-18-2015, 02:31 PM   #6176
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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Originally Posted by TimTimSalabim View Post
Yeah she made a great comeback with everyone against her. But drawing dead to a perfect succession of comp wins doesn't make you a great strategic player.
That's not true tho she just happened to win also.
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Old 09-18-2015, 02:33 PM   #6177
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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Derrick>>>>>>Vanessa ainec
Agree but BB17 still way better imo.
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Old 09-18-2015, 02:33 PM   #6178
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

Derrick played the single most impressive game I've seen in BB history. He was covered with everybody; nobody "caught on" to him the whole season and he was never really in any risk of going home whatsoever. Vanessa made a ton of questionable decisions down the stretch this season imo and credit to her for running so pure in comp wins, but she's nowhere near as good socially as Derek.
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:11 PM   #6179
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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Originally Posted by TimTimSalabim View Post
Yeah she made a great comeback with everyone against her. But drawing dead to a perfect succession of comp wins doesn't make you a great strategic player.
She was only drawing dead because her alliance left her for dead. Her tightest allies(they were like a family) kicked her to the curb like yesterday's garbage. I'm almost certain james even asked austin if it would be a problem if we didn't go for shelli like we agreed and instead went for vanessa. And Austin acted like it was no problem at all. All he had to say was why are we changing the plan? And james woulda went back to his people and said "This isn't gonna fly smooth. They expect us to hold up our end of the plan to evict shelli. And shelli is more after us anyway. Why are we going after vanessa again? Because Becky wants vanessa out?" Which is what they ended up deciding on their own anyway. But it woulda been such an easier decision if austin or the twins lifted a finger for vanessa. They didn't give a ****.

She won alot of comps but not enough to overcome the whole house targeting her. She did some great game talk and manipulating to not only survive the game but get back into a position of power deciding on who stays and who goes.
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:22 PM   #6180
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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She was only drawing dead because her alliance left her for dead. Her tightest allies(they were like a family) kicked her to the curb like yesterday's garbage. I'm almost certain james even asked austin if it would be a problem if we didn't go for shelli like we agreed and instead went for vanessa. And Austin acted like it was no problem at all. All he had to say was why are we changing the plan? And james woulda went back to his people and said "This isn't gonna fly smooth. They expect us to hold up our end of the plan to evict shelli. And shelli is more after us anyway. Why are we going after vanessa again? Because Becky wants vanessa out?" Which is what they ended up deciding on their own anyway. But it woulda been such an easier decision if austin or the twins lifted a finger for vanessa. They didn't give a ****.

She won alot of comps but not enough to overcome the whole house targeting her. She did some great game talk and manipulating to not only survive the game but get back into a position of power deciding on who stays and who goes.
And that's exactly why Vanessa is a very good, but not great player, because if she were one of the best ever, then the bolded wouldn't be true
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:24 PM   #6181
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

If Steve wins part 2 of HOH and Vanessa tells him we take each other or I'm voting for Liz would he chance it? He also might think Jackie upset with him. So either she lying or will have 3-4 GTD votes against him only needing 1-2 to lose.
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:24 PM   #6182
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

'Vanessa deserves to win and has played the best this season' doesn't equal 'Vanessa is an objectively great player'. I haven't been following the season too closely but I don't see why the field was much stronger than BB16 or other seasons that get criticized for a lack of competition, and when she does good work to save herself it's mostly from crises of her own making.
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:47 PM   #6183
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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And that's exactly why Vanessa is a very good, but not great player, because if she were one of the best ever, then the bolded wouldn't be true
Yes it would. No player, no matter how great they are, woulda stopped the austwins from being disloyal to them. Whoever aligned with them would always be expendable to them. Not only expendable but not even lift a finger for, or worse targeted. Also there was no way for her to know there would be a twin twist and that austin would fall in love with one of the twins making her drop down his totem pole of loyalty. They only cared about themselves. You can blame a player for making bad moves, i don't think you can blame a player for their people betraying them. Like did mike boogie suck because Ian turned? She just out of random luck aligned with a group that had no loyalty. Noway to know that when the game starts. Well she did worry about that with Austin and that is why she agreed to the house wanting to backdoor him. She wanted to save him out of loyalty but she knew it was bad news because he was already lying to her. She had to have shelli and clay beg her to reconsider. She gave austin a reprieve and he decides to f her over instead of appreciating her going against the house causing her to make more enemies. The exact reason why she wanted him out, because he couldn't be trusted.

Last edited by DarkCheck; 09-18-2015 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 09-18-2015, 04:12 PM   #6184
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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Originally Posted by SavageTilt View Post
'Vanessa deserves to win and has played the best this season' doesn't equal 'Vanessa is an objectively great player'. I haven't been following the season too closely but I don't see why the field was much stronger than BB16 or other seasons that get criticized for a lack of competition, and when she does good work to save herself it's mostly from crises of her own making.
Austin, Steve, Vanessa, jason, Jeff were very tough players. Better than everyone but Derrick from bb16 most likely.
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Old 09-18-2015, 04:39 PM   #6185
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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Austin, Steve, Vanessa, jason, Jeff were very tough players. Better than everyone but Derrick from bb16 most likely.
Jason sucked in all ways. Jeff could've been tough if he balanced his social game and stayed in longer. Shelli was way better than both of them socially, and in comps. It's tough to judge from season to season but I feel like there wasn't a major difference in skill level with the past two seasons.
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Old 09-18-2015, 05:12 PM   #6186
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

B16 was terrible
B17 like 10x better
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Old 09-18-2015, 05:22 PM   #6187
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

Big Brother 16
Joey terrible
Paola terrible
Devin fun to watch
Brittany terrible
Amber wasn't good but Caleb didn't help her
Jocasta terrible
Hayden its possible he could of done better on different season
Zach good on feeds
Donny terrible but like able
Nicole not terrible but not good
Christine not good
Frankie never want to see him again but was okay
Caleb terrible
Victoria terrible
Cody idiot
Derrick amazing
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Old 09-18-2015, 05:32 PM   #6188
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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Originally Posted by R_Webb18 View Post
B16 was terrible
B17 like 10x better
From a player skill perspective?

The jury is full of clueless idiots. Out of the jury + 3 remaining players I'd only consider Shelli, Austin & Vanessa to be solid Big Brother players. Actually come to think of it, having 3/11 solid players seems about on par for the average season.
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Old 09-18-2015, 06:02 PM   #6189
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

vtchess did a pretty good job of summing up vanessa's place. she's not an all-time great. if derrick and vanessa both played bb17 100 times, with memories erased each time, derrick crushes vanessa.

derrick might win bb16 almost every time that he doesn't get unlucky.

Last edited by wontoo; 09-18-2015 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 09-18-2015, 06:13 PM   #6190
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

I think Vanessa is great but I'm pretty sure she is 100% sure Steve is taking her if he wins. She trusts people's word as gold which is one of her biggest flaws. This and the fact that when certain people were against her this year she had no idea takes her down a notch on my all time list.
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Old 09-18-2015, 06:30 PM   #6191
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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Originally Posted by eaglesfaan View Post
Jason sucked in all ways. Jeff could've been tough if he balanced his social game and stayed in longer. Shelli was way better than both of them socially, and in comps. It's tough to judge from season to season but I feel like there wasn't a major difference in skill level with the past two seasons.
Jason did pretty much suck. But he doesn't suck. What i mean is he is a superfan and knows this game like the back of his hand. His skill level is very high. Problem was he underperformed for whatever reason, probably nerves.

Jeff didn't know the game's ins and outs on a steve, jason, or austin level but his manipulations skills were very good. He's a true salesman. If only he could stop talking out in the open about players he wanted evicted he may have went far. And if vanessa didn't take him out when she did we woulda saw a completely different season. One with no Vanessa and Austin and alot of goblins and clay.

I was gonna put shelli on the list of good players but it's kinda dicey. I see her a level below these other players from bb17, but certainly better than most bb16 players.

Audrey could have been a very good player too if she wasn't cray cray. She's a reality tv gamer. But she just couldn't help but overplay. She was vanessa on steroids but vanessa being on a higher level of intelligence.

Becky was a good athletic comp player and showed she had some cohones to make big moves when she targeted vanessa. It blew up in her face because her allies got wishy washy on her. But it showed she wasn't just a dumb girl floater. If she didn't go after vanessa she may have lasted long in this game.

Clay wasn't horrible either. At first his lips were too loose but with vanessa and shelli's help he tightened up his game.

Skill level was a big difference imo. Last year was a bunch of dumb models +franky and christine against an undercover cop. Derrick played flawlessly but he was never really tested. Vanessa had alot of snakes looking to target and throw shade on her the whole game because they were much more thinking and conniving players. Those bb16 models never thought on that level for the most part. If vanessa was put in Derricks spot last year i think she wins with a much less bumpy road than she had this year.
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Old 09-18-2015, 07:40 PM   #6192
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

In general I don't like comparing how good someone is based on how good we think their competition was. It is highly subjective first of all, and I'm pretty sure I could make rational arguments on how just about every single player on BB17 is just as "bad" as casts from other seasons. Is it just coincidence that some of the all-time reality GOAT performances occurred in seasons where people are claiming the cast was weak? I would argue that the cast appeared so weak because of how good the winner in those seasons was. (B-Rob in Survivor S21, Kim in S24, Derrick in BB16 all come to mind as seasons where people rant about how "dumb" the cast was. Coincidence?)

In fact, I feel like except for Austin, everyone in the latter half of this season has been weak-willed and let Vanessa just tell them what to do. JULIA PICKED AUSTIN IN AN ELIM COMP JUST CUZ VANESSA TOLD HER FFS. Julia couldn't even give a rational reason for why she was doing it; she just blindly followed what Vanessa told her to do. Steve is an emotional wreck who has no backbone (see video posted ITT earlier). Jmac is a complete joke of a player and based on his exit interviews with Julie, I'm convinced he just had no clue how to play BB well. James and Meg were there to scare people and/or lay in bed. Liz has won a few comps but overall is just a dumb blonde.

So yeah, BB17 cast was clearly uber strong....please. In an all-star cast, I think Vanessa would get absolutely wrecked, and I really hope we get a chance to find out. As a previous poster mentioned, Vanessa had no clue (and potentially still doesn't about Steve) how close she was to going home this season. I think Vanessa would be genuinely surprised to find out after the season how close she was to getting evicted had she not won some critical comps down the stretch.
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Old 09-18-2015, 07:50 PM   #6193
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

The tenor of this thread has changed so much. I can't be bothered to go back and copy all the "Vanessa is the WOAT" and there are LOTS! Now it's a debate between her being good or great.

As I've said all along she is clearly the best player this season by a wide margin and among the top tier all time. She is not in top 5 and doesn't deserve to lick Derricks shoes but she is pretty great.
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:02 PM   #6194
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

Just wanna make it clear I think Vanessa the best this season but not the best overall. I agree its hard to compare cast.

The reason Vanessa gave Julia why to pick Austin was b/c if Austin won noms would change.
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:16 PM   #6195
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

A mediocre to bad player imo runs hotter than the sun and now we're debating whether she's great or the greatest ever.....
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:39 PM   #6196
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

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A mediocre to bad player imo runs hotter than the sun and now we're debating whether she's great or the greatest ever.....
A mediocre to bad player doesn't control who goes home every single week
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:08 PM   #6197
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

Will the 2nd leg of finals be on live feeds whenever it happens?
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:10 PM   #6198
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

Most likely not
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:51 PM   #6199
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

Comp happening now.
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Old 09-19-2015, 02:11 AM   #6200
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Re: Big Brother 17 -- Premieres Wednesday June 24th on CBS @ 8pm

Steve won
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