this is very similar to me saying she didn't want to be thought of as outplayed by steve

I believe this too. She was a lock vote for Liz for nothing game wise.

Regarding the similarity, I pointed this out here. Not sure if you quoted this before the edit.

this does little to raise my respect for vanessa

I would be surprised and would lose a lot of respect for Vanessa if that is how she is to rationalize her vote for Liz, whether publicly or in her own head (the feminist argument) :P

And would lose even more respect if it was genuine

the problem is, when its final 2 you aren't voting for the ideal player or the best player of the season. you are voting for the best of the two players who are still standing. Vanessa simply did not do that, and that's why I'm justifiably losing respect for her (as I do with all bitter jurors on BB/Survivor ever)

I actually lose more respect for Vanessa compared to most bitter jurors, because she prides herself on being a ferocious game player and someone who can step back and view things very rationally and logically

So the fact she couldn't do that tonight is entirely disappointing. I would've applauded her class this episode had she voted steve (combined with the rest of the way she exited), but it just didn't happen.

Also voting someone to win solely because they are female has nothing to do with feminism, but that's another topic.

As someone who's twice lost a game like this due to a bitter jury, I am all the way with you :P

but I still think there are mitigating factors here and I'm expressing that I can understand it moreso than the more standard bitter juror (the puppet who got played by the puppeteer and refusing to acknowledge it, which I don't classify this as and I can see why Vanessa would be immediately offput by the notion and vote opposite of it)

I'm not sure if part of this is that you're maybe overestimating Steve (imo)

To me, this wasn't a Boston Rob vs puppet final 2 or Derrick vs Cody final 2 or anything. Not even remotely close.

let me be clear: I'm not rating steve high so much as I'm rating Liz low. Steve at least played the game and had his strategic moments. Liz had no clue, and even worse she couldn't even articulate anything for why she should win at the end. She was essentially ginamarie

I will grant you this hypothetical since it's fairly analogous IMO

If Ian voted out dan instead of danielle on whatever season that was

I suppose it's possible dan would've voted danielle to win

It's actually quite remarkable how similar Ian and steve's games were

She's a horrible speaker and that's a minus that should be considered, but it certainly shouldn't negate all the actual decisions and actions and results that she took and achieved. I think it's being too elitist and focused on a specific type of intelligence and articulation skills if we're letting that weigh too heavily on how we're judging the 90 or so days that someone played a game previous to those skills coming into play during the final moments.

It's a house, it's a social game, and it's a game with competitions. She got into the house, got herself positioned well socially, had shields, won competitions, was actually very good at letting things go and being a voice of reason within the alliance and ensuring that -EV routes weren't taken (such as taking out Vanessa). Liz reached final 2. I wouldn't rank her low.

edit: meaning I wouldn't rank her low as a BB player, as for 2nd place players I have no idea, I've only watched half the seasons

No sign of Vanessa yet in the backyard at all. Only people Jeff has yet to interview are her, Steve, the twins and Austin but they are being interviewed by others.

Any chance Vanessa is refusing to do post show interviews?

Did Ian have no clue the first half of the game? Not even attacking Steve just don't remember how on the outs Ian was. Until yesterday Vanessa was still explaining alliances and relationships from the first half of the game to Steve and he had no idea half of them existed.

Final 3 have to go through debriefing and things.

Ian was extremely awkward at the start of his season, the same way Steve was. In fact he was saved by boogie through the coach's twist one of the earlier weeks when he would've arguably went home (Steve also could've went home if he didn't win his first BoB)

Then they were both the bottom of a large alliance headed by someone who pissed a lot of people off (dan/Vanessa). Their only difference was their final decision, but it worked out for both of them.

I just don't really see Steve having any strategic moments besides evicting Vanessa. The HOH's he won were run by Vanessa. Besides those two HOH's where Vanessa dicated his nom's he didn't have any influence on the game.

I'm not saying Liz was any good either though. She wasn't strategic and didn't have very many original thoughts herself either. Very few people in this cast were capable of thinking for themselves.

My anti-Liz argument is that she wasn't responsible for her good positioning behind shields in the same way Steve was. For her, it was more just a matter of happenstance. She really didn't actively make moves on her own, it all just went through austin. I mean austin was coaching her on how to play the first couple weeks; she knew nothing about the show. She was gonna go on the block in week 2 if austin didn't convince Shelli to put up meg as the pawn next to Davonne, and it's very possible Liz would've been evicted over Davonne. She also was not the voice of reason within her alliance at all - Julia was the one who was adamantly against turning on Vanessa, not Liz. Liz was willing to do it because austin was

lol Austin is still bitter. Good stuff.

I see Steve and Liz outside though, no sign of Vanessa

I don't think we have any evidence, unless I missed it, that Vanessa was behind Steve's double eviction HOH when he took out Jackie.

And also if you listened to him talking to the camera or read his HOH blog, it's clear he had a much better understanding of the game than he was letting on to others.

And of course the bar is pretty low, because Liz didn't do anything.

fair enough to the last counterpoint, I had no idea, that does lower my opinion of her game, #twinracism

Lol pretty sure he didn't even talk to Vanessa for his first HoH. There was also the time that he made the alliance with John and the Austwins when it was looking like Vanessa was going to be the target but she of course won veto that week.