I'm interested in the answers from 1/2 but I'm mostly aiming this at players who play 2/4 and any stakes above that.

At which stakes did you start? What do you typically play now?

Did you find that you had a natural talent and were a winning player from the start or did you have to put a lot of work into it? If you had to work at it, what did you use to help you? Reading a lot? YouTube videos? Pay for a training on a site? What about coaching? Did you spend a lot on coaching?

I started in 2002 and I think the lowest limit offered was .25/.50. I can't imagine playing lower and it truly boggles my mind that lots of people do.

Main way I learned was this site, 2p2 books, and experience.

If we are talking about online poker, then I go all the way back to the first poker site.

1998 Planet Poker for whatever the smallest stakes Hold’em ring games they offered. They offered a 4 color deck and I was hooked on that from the start.

Then Paradise Poker where I first started adding in some single table sit and go play.

Then Ultimate Bet, Party Poker and PokerStars.

The date for the first time I played a hand on PokerStars is easy to remember. I was always looking for new poker sites to play and often poker sites started off as a play money site. I played PokerStars on the first day they started a play money site, I’m playing play money chips, I turned my television on and saw the New York City Twin Towers fall. It was September 11, 2001.

2001-2006 I played on probably 90% of all the sites that opened. Like I said, I enjoyed trying out new poker sites. But that came to an end in 2006 with UIGEA.

I started off playing the smallest stakes available at Hold’em and moved up through the years. I backed into PLO by starting at Omaha high low. I was playing Omaha high low sit and goes. And then went to Omaha high low cash and this was back when everything was mostly limit instead of pot limit. People played Omaha high low so poorly that it was easy to move up. And I started making even more when PokerStars offered Super Nova Elite. I was playing $5/10 limit Omaha high low on PokerStars, as well as $15/30 limit Omaha high low. The amount of rake in a limit split pot high low game was so huge that I made Super Nova Elite year after year without even trying. That was when I started making a lot of money when I got all that rake back. Also the $15/30 limit Omaha high low game had a whale named Mike Matusow that would eventually lose a hand or two, then accuse everyone of cheating and then there would be a huge Mike Matusow meltdown where he just gave money away. A whale is a great thing for your bankroll.

As for today, I’m in the USA and for the most part the highest online PLO is PLO$2000 or PLO$5000 and I’ll play either. I got there through hard work, many hours of play and reading a lot of poker books and articles back in the day. I also got there by trying to be better at the game instead of being a mass multi-tabling grinder. One of the best players that I know on Americas Cardroom (WPN network) is incredibly knowledgeable about the game of PLO, BUT he is a mass tabling rakeback grinder playing too many tables clicking buttons at a fast speed and only playing the stakes around PLO$100. That is pathetic. Being a rakeback grinder mass tabling a whole lot of medium stakes is not the way to go. Even when I was hitting Super Nova Elite I didn’t mass table to get it. SNE just came naturally since I was playing a limit split pot game with high rake. Wherever you do, don't become a rakeback grinder.

Also don’t be rude, obnoxious and smug. I grew up in Washington, DC which is a big city with a diverse amount of people racially and economically. Keeping the peace was easy, “don’t start none, there won’t be none.” I don’t start stuff on this sub-forum, but I gladly fight back. But back to that “don’t be rude, obnoxious and smug.” One of the best books back in the day was Jeff Hwangs’ Pot Limit Omaha Poker, The Big Play Strategy. But if I started a thread right now about Jeff Hwang and that book, I bet at least half the poster would make some rude, obnoxious and smug comment. That book was in 2008, way before solvers, and that book was a Christmas gift in terms of which types of hands to play. Any discussion of preflop hand discussion started with that book. And with Hwangs’ books as a source, along with other material, the legendary Bugs on Donker did a great job showing how to “play from scratch.” Although times have changed, I still think it is possible to learn a lot for cheap or free. Search the damn internet for free stuff, that is easy enough. Now that we are in the subscription model for pricing, I would suggest buying one month of something like RIO or Mastermind and spending that month learning everything on the site in 30 days and then canceling. Don’ get stuck paying month after month after month after month. And let me give you and example how you can leapfrog through time. In 2021 you get one month of Mastermind and learn all the material, then cancel after one month. In 2022 you get one month of RIO and learn all the material, then cancel after one month. In 2023 you go back to Mastermind for a month and Mastermind has had two years to come out with new material. Make ssense? Paying month after month after month when there is no new material is silly. At a monthly of at least $100 per month, there is no ****ing way that the average person is getting $1,200+ worth of yearly knowledge from these poker sites. In my opinion, and obviously it is only my opinion, but I see monthly subscribers and being as silly as rakeback mass tabling grinders.

I’m in USA, and on the poker site I mostly play, the stakes start at PLO$5 and there are 9 different stakes ending at PLO$2,000. I think it would take someone 5 years or less to go from PLO$5 to PLO$2,000. It is rather easy. But you have to avoid certain mistakes.

Don’t become a mass tabling rakeback grinder.

Don’t be a rude, obnoxious, smug poker player always dismissing good advice.

Don’t give a lot of your money away on a never ending monthly subscription to a poker training site.

And lastly, start off learning how to play 100bb poker like a pro. Reset your stack back to 100bb when you get to 200bb+. I see people play just fine with their 100bb stack, they win a hand and then lose the 150bb+ back playing in a manner that was okay for a 100bb stack, but was a horrible play for 150bb+. Learn one stack size first and become a pro at it. I'm telling you that 100bb is extremely easy it almost plays itself in many situation, for example, because of the preflop action, you will often be sitting there with an SPR of 4 or less and when you are bet into you will either shove or fold. If you lose, then you are rebuying to 100bb and if you win you are usually resetting your stack back 100bb. And those two events are equal because you as the better player with better starting hand selecting is shoving with an equity advantage. Rinse and repeat and make a fortunes as the best damn 100bb player in your online game. If you can't get that crap right, then what the hell makes players think they can play 150bb+ stacks well? I watch some weight lifting YouTube channels, and almost every video says don't lift too heavy by "ego lifting." All I see at poker is "ego deep stacks" who don't even know how to play 100bb. Become a 100bb pro first, and then learn deeper stacks later. Trust me, 100bb poker is easy.

@ Your Mom - What stakes do you play now?

As far as playing lower stakes, I can only give you my perspective why: Still learning, lack of confidence, being lost as to which moves to make, betting - like how much and when. Which hands are good to go all in with, etc. Why lose $50 or more a stack when you can only lose $10 or $20 / stack when you're learning?

@ Ladybruin.

I absolutely love your story and thank you for the long reply.

Before you started playing online, did you play live a lot?

I didn't realize that online poker started as far back as 1998 but until the craze hit after Moneymaker, it wasn't something I'd been aware of at all. What an awful way to have to remember your first time playing on PokerStars.

Out of curiosity, when UIGEA hit, did you lose a large amount of your bankroll or were you able to get it out beforehand?

In regard to starting at the smallest stakes of Hold 'Em, do you still play NLHE much? It seems like you're much more focused on PLO? Is it just that you like it better?

That's an amazing story about 15/30 high low and a hilarious story about Matusow. Apparently, the personality we see on TV is spot on and not just an act. I've read elsewhere that Matusow plays well until something sets him off and he goes on tilt. Apparently, you were a very happy recipient of his swings.

In regard to PLO H/L, do you find it a more forgiving game than PLO high? In PLO H/L, your read can be off and you still end up with half the pot, whereas it's rare to split a pot in PLO high, being more or a less and all or nothing proposition.

PLO 2k/5k is really something. Putting such large amounts on the line sounds so scary, especially if variance reared its head at you and you lose 20 or 30 buy ins. That has to be tough mentally?

In regard to the guy that mass tables at $100 PLO, who's so knowledgeable. Do you think he's mass tabling at lower stakes because the competition is so much easier with less worry or is he just not good enough to consistently win at your level?

As far as being a rakeback grinder, I don't ever that happening and since Stars just opened back up in my state for cash play and since I had an existing account, there was no rakeback offered. The only thing remotely close is a points system for volume play but it's very little. Maybe the higher limits get good rakeback deal, even if they had a preexisting account?. When other sites come online, for a nice rakeback deal, it's worth it to consider moving.

In regard to the Hwang series or other books prior to solvers, you don't think that they've been rendered mostly obsolete? There is a lot of free stuff online for sure.

As far as PLO Mastermind, I signed up for 3 months and it's helped me tremendously. I'm a huge fan of the content and when you're as new to the game as I am, it's all new material. After this 3 months is up, I'm going to cancel and will take your suggestion and come back to it every so often.

I do intent to sign up with RIO for at least a month for their content. There's a RIO course that I'm seriously considering buying and I've been told that Emty's material is very good. I'm very interested in the Cory Mikesell content as well. His HU 3-bet book is something I'd like to explore but at $1500 / pop, that's not going to happen any time soon.

In regard to the stacking and resetting back to 100 bb each time, until you'd mentioned it, I didn't realize it could be done. After I read your post, I looked at PS and unchecked the option about returning to the table with the same about you left with but didn't see anything about reset to 100bb after a large win. Doesn't that leave an impression at the table though? It seems like it would send the message of "I'm afraid to play big deep stacks"? Additionally, isn't there an intimidation factor when someone is at the table with a huge stack?

Posts like these are very encouraging to me, especially from people who play high stakes. It comforting to know that moving up to high stakes is possible, if you put the work in.

Yeah I’ve been around long enough to have some fun stories about poker.

But, let’s see if we can get you on track. Imagine if instead of a deck of 52 cards we instead only had 3 cards. If there is only an Ace, King and Queen, then we have simplified the deck and created a “toy game.” If you have the Ace you can bet 100% of the time because you know you can’t lose. And on the opposite end if you have the Queen you know you can’t win at showdown and you have to decide how often to bet hoping you can get the King to fold. And if you have the King, and the other player bets into you, then you have to decide how to play. It can still be confusing, but a 3 card toy game is a lot easier than a 52 card game. What I’m telling you is that 100bb poker in 3-bet and 4-bet pots is a toy game. Based on the greatly reduced stack to pot ratio, the game is a lot easier to understand and play well. If you start to increase the starting stacks to 150bb+, then the game becomes considerably more complex. But, firstly how the hell are you going to understand the more complex 150bb+ game if you don’t understand the 100bb simpler game (preflop and postflop)? Secondly, being a 100bb master is going to come in handy every time you try to move up in stakes.

I want you to learn the game from big pots first. Most players open raise pot or at least 3x so don’t get too caught up on the exact stack to pot ratio. So in a preflop 4-bet pot we have the CO open raise and BU 3-bet and CO 4-bets. If the players started with 100bb, then on the flop the stack to pot is SPR 1 or less, which is only a pot size bet left in each player’s stack. That is a toy game type situation where there is only a single pot sized bet left, the game has been simplified to a super simple decision. If the SPR is 1 or less, then generally speaking you get it in if you hit any piece of the flop. A starting stack size 100bb is easy to play in 4-bet pots. Increase the starting stack to something else like 150bb, 200bb or more and the flop stack to pot ratio changes (along with the preflop strategy). Learn one damn stack size first and become a pro at it.

At 100bb, a 3-bet pot is also simplified in many ways. If you open raise, and then the SB 3-bets you and you call the 3-bet, then on the flop the SPR will be 4 or less. If on the flop the SB cbets, then at SPR 4 or less you will either raise or fold. Generally speaking, in this situation at SPR 4 or less you shove or fold. If you play the hand, then you commit your stack. At SPR 4 or less calling is no longer a wise option, it is either shove or fold. The game has been simplified because 100bb will have you at SPR 4 or less in a 3-bet pot. Increase the starting stack to something else like 150bb, 200bb or more and the flop stack to pot ratio changes (along with the preflop strategy). Learn one damn stack size first and become a pro at it.

Is it sinking in yet? Become a 100bb beast. Learn how to play 100bb incredibly well preflop. You will end up on the flop in similar SPR situations over and over again. All you have to do is learn which SPRs to continue with in these situations. The game doesn’t get difficult until we get to a single raised pot with a lot higher SPR.

Shot taking is another reason to know everything about being a pro at 100bb. Most players want to move up over time. Most players will take shots at a higher stake. The safest way to shot take is to be fully bankrolled for your normal stake and then have 1 to 10 “bullets” to use as a shot at the higher stake. You are over betting the higher stake, but you are doing it with the “bullets.” I was talking to someone and they told me they took a 100bb bullet shot at a high stake. They told me they got pocket AA and double up on their first orbit at the table. I responded, “cool now you have two bullets.” They told me that they did NOT reset their stack back 100bb and instead lost the 200bb a few hands later. WHAT THE ****. This makes no sense and yet people do it all the time. The advice I am giving you about resetting your stack isn’t just because of SPR it is also about how to move up in stakes over time and take shots. And what you have probably already noticed if you have ever moved up stakes is that every higher stakes has players playing more aggressive. Well guess what, the aggression at higher stakes won’t affect or scare you at all. You will take a 100bb shot and you will open raise and if someone 3-bet you and you call the 3-bet, then you will be on the flop saying in your mind, “well the SPR here is SPR 4 or less and if this dude in the SB cbets me I’m shoving or folding and I know the correctly situations to do it in.”

100bb poker in 3-bet and 4-bet pots is easy.

See above in bold.

Do you snap reset stacks?

Seems like ratholling if you then hop back on the same stakes. Kinda unethical for you to suggest others to do that.

I could also point out that stack size is irrelevant to spr. For example in a limped pot at 100bb it would be the same spr as a 3 or 4b pot at certain depths. The spr could be the same despite the depth of stacks. So plo is more about learning spr spots and playing them accordingly.

Lady Bruin is right on some of the assessment. It’s easier to play 100bb bc you will face less high spr spots which create more decision points and open you to more mistakes.

There is no reason to snap re-set. In online poker almost all games are now 6-max. You are never more than a few hands away from the blinds. I'm suggesting for anyone who is just learning the game. Or has been even playing for years, but not winning, that they learn one stack size first. Learn 100bb poker. If you win a hand that doubles your stack to at least 200bb+, then hit the "sit out next BB" button. At 6-max you are never more than a few hands from the BB. And almost every site has a timer penalty of say 30 minutes before you can return to the same table. So if it was a juicy table, then you are paying a reasonable price.

There has been a war against short stackers almost since the beginning of online poker. 2+2 has recorded many long threads trying to force the poker sites to get rid of 10bb and 20bb as the minimum buy-in. But no one has ranted and raved about players re-setting their stack to something as high as 100bb. A 100bb is just a set point, and a reasonably high set point at that.

Personally if I could go back in time and change anything about online poker, I would have made it minimum buy-in of 100bb, maxiumum buy-in of 100bb. And then you do the hell that you want after that, if you want to stay at a table all day and night building up a stack, then cool. If you want to re-set at any time, then cool. Examples of something going in this direction is when PokerStars changed something so that you can only short stack so many times in a day and then you must play at least 100bb minumum for rest of day. And I think Americas Cardroom/WPN network has raised the minimum buy-in at their fast poker to 80bb. No one is complaining about players playing 100bb.

And I've gone so far in past posts to say that a deep ante version should be deep every hand. For example, 150bb deep ante should have a forced top up to 150bb so that every single player at the table is playing at least 150bb every hand. How the poker sites got this stuff wrong is amazing. Hey let's create a deep ante version and not force it to actually be deep. WTF.

8 edits are you done yet?

This is textbook rathole behavior. It’s unethical please stop telling others to do this and please stop doing this yourself. It’s so bad for the eco system and will literally piss off fish and make them not want to play.

I spanked you yesterday in your own thread.

Don't come into this one trying to pick an imaginary fight. No one is whining about people re-setting to 100bb and paying whatever re-set timer penalty the poker site has before you can return to that exact table.

You look like a foolish strawman.

Oh the irony

Full quote.

Mrs lady..

When you rathole do you ever worry about upsetting your opponents to the point they might not give you action? Or you can’t see the big picture on that ?

Bohemian,

Your strawman arguments and fake outrage isn't fooling anyone. You are embarrassing yourself in the high stakes PLO sub-forum.

This website is a tiny part of the world. Anyone that found 2+2 is getting a lot of free advice and love about the game of poker. My advice in this thread to anyone starting out or even having played for years, but is not winning, is for them to learn one stack size first. I'll put my advice in this thread, or any thread, like my recent posts in DumboTrucks 5-card thread, up against anything you have ever posted.

I just did a check, my last post in DumboTrunks' thread was over 750 words long. I'm on the high stakes PLO sub-forum talking strategy. And will to go in depth. And my guess is that many people here appreciate it.

Can't you see the big picture? You on the other hand have been reduced to nothing but a troll.

It’s actually strange how much you type. You must seek validation or something. Also why are you giving all this info away for free? It literally makes no sense. Even if your advice is good (some of it is some not so much) why would you want to help out your opponents?

I can only assume you are seeking validation/looking for fights.

Even if the entire forum agree with you in being a hit and run artist and ratholer that still wouldn’t make it right.

I take exception to people both spilling industry secrets and telling others to rathole. It’s so bad for the game. You sound like a bad reg if you can’t see this.

You seem confused about where you are typing. This is a poker web site. Just come to terms with the fact you have been reduced to nothing but a 2+2 troll. There are other parts of the interweb if this poker web site with people talking poker triggers you. Maybe you would be happier elsewhere. I know!!!. Why don't you go to a live casino and play a live No Limit hold'em table while also playing PLO on your phone. Or maybe skip the PLO on your phone and simultaneously play a live No Limit Hold'em table and a live PLO table.

D'OH

Post #29 for anyone out of the loop on Bohemian's skillset.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-seat-1793028/

It’s against forum rules to call people troll mr 2+2 champion oh great one!

Lady, why do my differences threaten you so much?

If poker players on a poker forum talking poker hands trigger you, then maybe you should read something else.

Dude this forum is dead.. and you’re the only one giving away info.

Giving away industry secrets is exactly what it is and she just has been bombarding it lately beating home paragraphs of it on one particular topic for the amateurs. It’s Ok it would just be nice for it to be honed down to keep the industry alive honestly. We all have that insecure side and are attracted to poker for that reason, let alone poker debate forums, so it’s OK but it would be cool if we could debate some actually interesting spots in this forum such as middling flushes and straights versus good players etc and spots like that

its all good!

If I am giving away too much. I won't post in the plo high stakes sub-forum for the last few days of this month and the whole month of August. I'll stick to other sub-forums.

My guess is there is a silent majority that like interesting in depth discussions on a poker FORUM. But since virtually no one is backing me up....

poof

The industry is doing quite well with the huge amount of rake they take. More rake isn't better, DN.

Aside from that, it would appear that my original post has been completely hijacked by someone with an axe to grind.

@ladybruin - Please keep posting, I find your posts interesting and informative. They've helped me for sure.