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Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit

05-26-2021 , 09:25 AM
Playing HU online against a player who is fairly nitty. He got his stack when I had a wrap + 2 backdoor flush draws vs. his top set, which was somewhat obvious, but I can't fold there.

Player is quite familiar with me. I generally am just betting small on flops and turns and he will fold without strong hands, and I've been on a bit of a winning stream and he seems to be getting annoyed and trying to make more moves.

I have A 4 Q T in the BB/first to act after flop heads up.

Villain has me covered, I have $1500.

Blinds $4/$8

Preflop

SB raises to $16. I re-raise to $48. SB calls.

Pot $96

Flop T 3 5

Pretty ideal flop for me, gutshot + nut flush draw + TPTK.

I lead out for pot $96. Maybe I should have check-raised, but I could see a lot of bad turn cards, I'm happy to just take it down, and if he decides to raise, I'm shoving.

V calls.


Pot $288

Turn T

Now I'm definitely in good shape. I don't think he has a set or two pair, although hand like T5/T3 is certainly possible, but very few combos on it. Plus I have a outs against it.

I check, figure he has *something*, might take a stab at it, and there's a very good chance I'm ahead, so why scare him off?

He bets $230.

I call.

Pot $748

River K

Definitely not a good card because if he has KT I'm done, I don't think he has KK here.

I check. I figure this lets him bluff missed flush draws/bluffs, plus I don't really mind a free showdown against this player.

He pots it $748.

This is very polar. I've seen him do this with very strong hands, his turn bet is showing a lot of strength.

However, something doesn't smell right to me. I do use my full time bank to think things over. 33, 55 beat me. Would he shove that when the flushes miss? I don't think he does. He's repping two hands here, KT and KK. Maybe T5.

Can I hero call, or does he have it every time?

$748 to win $1496.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-26-2021 , 04:00 PM
This is an ok flop to lead not because you caught so well but that you block a lot of his cbets. thinking kr when holding smaller clubs (and whatever else has moved you) makes more sense. Pot sizing is suspect, however, because you aren't really playing many overpairs like that at SPR 14 and that's mostly what you have, an advantage in AA/overpairs. Pot sizing at SPR ~4 and smaller is justified for equity denial that you don't have at this depth. Half pot or smaller would be better, I think.

Turn is better as a small bet 1/3 for creating indifference, imo. Does better at extracting value for the meat of your range, overpairs. Given your check, just pot it as that at least lets you max your bluffs even if it's not great for your value range.

River can't be that polar when he's got to think any T is good. your pot flop kc turn is AA very often and maybe you get curious and/or he should have bluffs to continue. This is top of range never fold unless he's incapable of bluffing enough and that seems contrary to the given reads. If folding is close to correct we were never going to be able to give you river advice here.

On second thought we can have a decent number of KK ourselves but still too high in range, imo. If he has KK/KT so be it.

FWIW really enjoy your posts. I'm trying to learn and welcome all feedback.

Last edited by Munga30; 05-26-2021 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Kings
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-26-2021 , 09:07 PM
I'm trying to figure out what kind of hands will arrive at the river in his range, and even after I call the pot sized bet on the turn, that he'd want to pot. He has to know I have something, but is he just assuming I have missed clubs?

As for him not being capable of a bluff, that is my biggest concern. This guy is really nitty. I did catch him bluffing big on the river earlier, though. But with our history, it's been paying him off every damn time and I just felt like he had to be very value heavy on the river. What bluffs does he get to the river with? I have the nut flush draw. I have a 4 blocking a few of the straight draws. I don't block the 3's and 5's, which when it's value, it's a boat, and he's not chasing here. Maybe he has something like a wrap that missed, but fewer combos of that. Yes, at the tip top of my range here and played the hand very strangely.

I will add, against the opponent, given he is nitty, I am very often betting super small on a ton of flops since he just gives up.

Opponent did show his hand, I'm just trying to count combos of what he can have that got there. Absolutely T5, T3, KT (with maybe a flush draw or wrap)? T5 definitely follows that line, T3 even more so.

I think if he has just a T on the end, he's checking back a lot if his kicker is not an ace or betting smaller. So he's either completely full of it or has a boat. But what hands get to the river that missed?
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-26-2021 , 09:56 PM
This is a routine call. Villain can have worse ts, missed flush draw, missed wrap, and some other bluffs.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-27-2021 , 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
This is a routine call. Villain can have worse ts, missed flush draw, missed wrap, and some other bluffs.
I block nut flush draw. Against tricky/good opponents, I can see him going for it with a wrap on the turn and river, but this guy is really nitty. He absolutely is not betting a worse ten here twice. I guarantee that.

The one other read I had on this guy was he seemingly was getting more and more frustrated with me over time, so I did weigh bluffs a bit more than I usually would for him. I had doubled my stack through just pounding away at him and could tell he was just playing a bit off his normal nitty style.


I did initially want to fold just because I've called this guy so much and he's had it every damn time and paying off nits is just so bad overall, but something felt off on this.

I called.

Villain had K 8 7 5

Flop he has pair + 2nd nut flush. Turn he sees me check and bets big to take it down, and river he hits top pair, but turned it into a bluff when I checked.

Hero wins $2244.

Felt a bit lucky that he actually was bluffing, given I had the ideal bluff cards in my hand, although I guess with a 5 and K in his hand he blocked some boats that I could have there.

He went from a $2146 stack to $1022, and went on a huge tilt and I stacked him a bit later, so the call not only made me the profit of the hand but was a good part in winning the rest of his stack.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-27-2021 , 01:10 PM
You checked turn for your reason of underrepping your hand. Now you obviously have to snap call river because no draws hit. Is a nit betting KK on the turn? If he has KT so be it.

Last edited by txdome; 05-27-2021 at 01:17 PM.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-27-2021 , 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by txdome
You checked turn for your reason of underrepping your hand. Now you obviously have to snap call river because no draws hit. Is a nit betting KK on the turn? If he has KT so be it.
Yeah, I felt like I played myself by doing that. I've seen this guy take one big stab but never two, and started seeing monsters under the bed.

But looking at it from his shoes, he really played the hand well and almost got me to fold a very strong hand. He had a lot of key blockers, unblocked the nut flush missing. And having a ten on my side is not very likely. I do feel I may have been a bit lucky making the call and having the best hand.

Will KK bet the turn? With a flush draw+ straight draw perhaps. I expected a lot of tens in his hand though.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-27-2021 , 03:17 PM
Based on hand villain had, he is less nitty then you think. You should be very careful with that assumption HU. Especially without a better feel for many standard HU lines.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-27-2021 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
Based on hand villain had, he is less nitty then you think. You should be very careful with that assumption HU. Especially without a better feel for many standard HU lines.
Based on how he played the rest of that night, I can tell he was getting frustrated and changed his game up.

I do have a rule that I just generally avoid paying off nits, so it may have worked this time, am I good 1/3 times? I'm not sure.


Two other big hands from the session:

K 2 2 Q

I raise 3bb, he calls. (I was generally raising 80% of hands since I could take them down on any flop he didnt have a huge hand with 30% flop bets).

Pot: 6BB

Flop K 9 5

V bets 4.75 BB
I call

Pot 15.5 BB

Turn K

V bets 12.5 BB
I call

Pot: 40.5 BB

River Q

V checks
I bet 40.5 BB
V tank calls

I show
V mucks

Probably played this one badly, but I'm not gonna fold trips there.



Hand #3


V has 60 BB to start, I cover.

I have A A K 2

I raise 3BB
V raises 9BB
I re-raise 27BB
V calls

Pot 54BB

Flop 9 3 7

V shoves 32.7 BB
I call

V shows J Q T 9:spade

T: 3 R: 6

EZ game.

Almost all these hands against him are boring, I bet flop, it's over, win about 3-4 pots for every pot I lost.

Here's a good example of one I lost:

I have 200 BB, he covers.

H KJ96 all

H raises 3BB, V re-raises 9 BB, I call.

Flop K Q 3

V bets 14.5 BB
I call

Turn 6

V checks, I check

River 3

V checks, I check

V shows A A T 2
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-27-2021 , 06:08 PM
Another one maybe I was too tight:

190 BB or so for me, he covers.

A 4 4 9

V raises to 2 BB
I call

Flop 4 3 6

I check
V bets 3.25 BB
I call

Pot 10.25 BB

Turn K

I check
V bets 8.25 BB
I call

Pot 26.75 BB

River T

I check
V bets 26.75 BB
I fold.

Too tight of a fold on the end?
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-27-2021 , 06:14 PM
Biggest loss hand:

Hero A J 9 8

V2 = same villain as before

4 handed in this one with two competent opponents

V1 raises to 3.5 BB on button
V2 Button calls
V3 folds SB
H reraises to 14.5 BB in BB
V1 calls
V2 calls

Pot: 44BB

Flop Q T 2

H bets 44BB
V1 folds
V2 jams 140.5BB
I call

V2 shows QQA5

Turn 4 to tease me
River A for the miss
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-28-2021 , 02:19 AM
The way you described V I'd lean towards fold otr. You obviously have to reevaluate that read after this showdown though.

Also don't understand the psb otf. You fold out a lot of hands you want him to continue with with such a large sizing and you are mega blocking most continues. His call otf should ordinarily indicate strength then, especially if he's been relenting for smaller sizings previously. This is even more of a reason I'd lean towards river fold.

Turn check - why? If you were trapping, I guess it makes sense. But against a nit? Do nits sense weakness and start blasting typically? Sounds more like a LAG to me. Or were you concerned you were behind and that's why you checked? I think this goes back to the large flop sizing, putting you in no man's land ott. Smaller flop sizing and you won't be as worried after a nit calls, so you can keep betting. I would probably x/c river as a bluffcatcher since I kept his range wide enough that he can have enough draws I beat if he decides to bluff.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-28-2021 , 09:14 AM
From the hands you posted V’s plays all seem standard, why do you think he’s that nitty ?
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-28-2021 , 01:39 PM
Sounds like he gives up too easily in lots of small pots
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-28-2021 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69
From the hands you posted V’s plays all seem standard, why do you think he’s that nitty ?
Because I didn't post the 50 out of 60 hands where I bet tiny on the flop and took down.

I looked at the last session for any reasonably big hands and not that many other interesting ones. But in the past, big bet on river = nut hand every time I've called, and he's checked back on river with very strong hands very often.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-28-2021 , 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk
The way you described V I'd lean towards fold otr. You obviously have to reevaluate that read after this showdown though.

Also don't understand the psb otf. You fold out a lot of hands you want him to continue with with such a large sizing and you are mega blocking most continues. His call otf should ordinarily indicate strength then, especially if he's been relenting for smaller sizings previously. This is even more of a reason I'd lean towards river fold.

Turn check - why? If you were trapping, I guess it makes sense. But against a nit? Do nits sense weakness and start blasting typically? Sounds more like a LAG to me. Or were you concerned you were behind and that's why you checked? I think this goes back to the large flop sizing, putting you in no man's land ott. Smaller flop sizing and you won't be as worried after a nit calls, so you can keep betting. I would probably x/c river as a bluffcatcher since I kept his range wide enough that he can have enough draws I beat if he decides to bluff.
PSB on flop vs. smaller, he's folding a lot here regardless, so extracting value while I can, and potentially can scare him off something later. There are a lot of bad turns I can have here, so I really don't mind taking it down, so putting max pressure on here is fine with me. This could of course be a mistake.

Turn check - pot control a bit. We are deep, he can put a lot of pressure where we have to call. If I check, worst case I am calling 2 pot sized bets and getting to the end, whereas if I bet, he very easily raises or folds, which both are horrible for me. I'm out of position, I have a fairly strong hand, I can certainly trap a little. If I bet on turn, he folds a lot, which sucks. So it is designed to be a little bit deceptive. If I can boat on river, I can blast and he won't believe me, and if I miss, I can likely get to showdown cheap (or so I thought).

I need to look back at the session to look at what I was doing on flops, 30% was pretty much my standard bet to him, although out of position I generally played pretty passive on the flop. If I completely miss, sometimes I'd bet into him and hope I could take it down, and if I hit something, I could check-call/check-raise a lot.

Appreciate the feedback, definitely could have played a lot of this better. I do try to change up flop sizing a lot, go bigger on more connected boards.

I looked a bit more at my session, and had just an endless string of hands where I never donk bet the flop, at least after this one.

Here's another one where I did, but it's not terribly interesting.

H has 4667:diamond.

V raises 2BB
H calls.

Pot 4BB

Flop 6 5 5

H donk leads for 1 BB
V raises to 3 BB
H re-raises to 10.5BB
V folds.

I obviously got a bit aggressive here, but did think he was likely to continue. My image is very much that I'm betting with nothing a LOT.

Here's another donk lead hand:

H: K 8 7 4

V raises to 2BB
H calls

Pot 4BB

Flop K 3 9

Hero donks for 1.25 BB
V calls

Pot 6.5 BB

Turn 7

Hero bets 4.5 BB
V calls


Pot 15.5BB

River 6

Hero bets 4.5 BB
V folds


Another donk lead:

Hero: 6 6 8 q

V raises to 2BB
H calls.

Pot 4BB

Flop T 6 K

H bets 2.75BB
V calls

Pot 9.5BB

Turn 6

Hero bets 9.5BB
V folds

LOL me not getting value out of quads.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-28-2021 , 05:04 PM
These 1/3 pot leads OOP are pretty awful most textures.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote
05-29-2021 , 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
These 1/3 pot leads OOP are pretty awful most textures.
Normally yes. When I can take down the pot 90% of the time, it's great.
Tough river spot against a nit who knows I think he's a nit Quote

      
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