5-5 PLO forced straddle on button (so in effect 5-5-10)

I guess I really screwed this one up. Had just tripled up in a hand from 500 to 1500, beating top set nuts on two boards (made a running flush and a straight with wrap draw).

I have Ac-9c-9d-7d. $25 to go, six players, i’m in cutoff. Flop 10-9-5 rainbow. In general, middle set ain’t no hand in ring games, I get that. Pretty horrible what I did, though. Check around to me, I had already noticed button gonna bet, he has come out of his computer poker game and tipped it somehow. I checked. He bet pot 150. Three calls to me, last to act.

I had it in my head somehow, pot it or fold. In general, middle set sucks agaisnt a bunch of players, of course. I hesitate. “Even if my dream card, a 5 comes, I have the third nuts,” I tell myself. Nothing but a 9 makes me the nuts. Isn’t that a bad hand in omaha against the field?? Since it is the button that has bet on a check around, and no one raised him, that greatly reduces chances of trip 10s being out in my book. Also, subtly, as I mentioned he seemed froggy to bet this flop, and that means draw usually, whereas if you flop trip 10s on that board, your mindset is more act weak till its on you. That’s my live read of it.

What are the odds of winning with these trip nines, I ask myself. Being unwilling to raise it, to my everlasting chagrin, not really, but regrettably at least I’d have to say, I THREW THE HAND AWAY. I had one foot out the door, wanting the dime win. Recited to myself the middle set sucks rule, knowing the rule didn’t apply strongly here.

The turn either gave me the winner or trapped me for my stack: paired the 5. Never saw the winning hand. Winning dude started talking about his hand saying everything but 10s-full or quad fives. Also said he loved the 5. ??? Hmm.

I just overlooked the strength of calling. Had I raised several were coming for the 1500 probably. Had I called to see the 5 pair, gonna be me and button to the river. I'd check to him again, shove if he bets. Find out.

What I did there is better than playing middle set indiscriminately, but I don’t think it’s a reasonable play and probably gave up a ton of profit.

How bad was it?

[ ] Stop playing immediately.
[ ] Please play every day.
[ ] There's middle set and there's middle set. Don't sweat it.
[ ] Great move.

Sorry man, but you took the worst of the 3 options there. Can get behind a call or raise. Did you also have 2 backdoor flush draws or just one? Sometimes I might balance if I have 2 I might just call and if 1 I would raise.

Oh I think you are probably being kind. Just a little backdoor diamond draw, no nut club backdoor. Still wondering if it was bizarro bad or somewhat defensible under the middle and bottom set rule.

We all make mistakes, at least you recognize what yours was.

Middle set in PLO on a non-straight board without an Ace showing (when raised pre-flop) is pretty damn strong - why call pre-flop with a hand like this unless you want to flop a multi-draw or a set?

Looks like you just over-thought it; I feel you made a mistake not leading the flop, you are on the cut-off and it's checked to you with only one player behind so very unlikely you are against 10-10 anywhere but any K/Q/J/8/7/6 makes a straight and there are 6 players in the pot so it's likely those will all make a straight for someone.

If button had checked behind you would've been giving free turn to out-draw you when you should be jamming as hard as possible. Sometimes everyone folds, sometimes a wrap or 55/1010 check-raise all-in, sometimes a couple guys call and you get to see a turn in position and are least last to act.

All better options then check-folding; I'd say my preference for this scenario would be:

1. Bet Flop
2. Check-Raise Flop
3. Check-Call Flop

But yeah I'd never be folding, especially for $150 this deep against a dude playing fast and loose - sometimes you get cold-decked and sometimes you get out-drawn but you lose so much value by not jamming, gotta get that Fold Equity and tax the draws in multi-way raised pots.

Now if I bet pot, button calls and then someone that limped earlier 3-bets all-in we are in a tricky spot but still don't have a choice without an INSANE read (could easily be against something like KQJJ); if you are going to play A997 double-suited for a pre-flop raise then flopping middle set on a non-Ace high board (with no straight or flush) is about as good as it gets with that hand.

The value in your hand is all in sets and multi-draws, it's not in flopping a flush or a straight. If you flop a nut-flush you won't get paid majority of the time, if you flop a straight with 97 you could be getting free-rolled, be coin-flipping against a set + higher draw, or just have the sucker-end and be getting scooped.

You are saying you need to flop 9's full or a nut multi-draw (i.e. 86x with two diamonds) to feel comfortable...that's asking a lot of the deck to be consistently profitable with this hand, it just isn't flopping that hard for you 97% of the time.

Yeah, betting the damn thing straight out in cutoff is the obvious solution. I swear I got sidetracked by the button guy coming out of his telephone playing (I had just asked him a few hands before if he was playing on line, he said yes), ... and now he came out of the phone and also tipped like obv he was betting. So in that sense it gave me a perfect check-raise scenario, getting a bunch of people in with about a 40% equity in hand if both wraps (big and medium) are out (but no trip 10s). It was perfect but I didn't want to play middle set for stack, top set is tough enough. But damn ... calling 150 against 750 in that spot is so easy it ridiculous. But I had one foot out the door. Had just been thru that at the hold'em table and lost stack on last two deals (Q-Q and A-Ks).

It was overcaution, which I"m very guilty of when ahead and late at night. Thanks for great input. Your 1-2-3 options are perfect, 4th option was dumb dumb but probably not off the charts idiotic like I first overreacted.

lol


everything has been said already but yea thats lolbad

How tf you fold? Bet 650(or go full p, i like this size bc then your all in next street still sizable, plus u dont want to size it to only be called by TT or the best of wrap/fd's. But i know this isnt how others see it) and get the riff raff to fold and then rip turn. Or btn will repot and gii

I mean, if you are going to do this you might as well fold pre and play only nuttier hands with less middle set potential. Honestly if you always stacked off with middle or bottom set whenever there is no straight or flush on board, you would probably be fine, although there are some pretty obvious spots to toss bottom set, and once in a blue moon mid set is a fold as well.

The main key to this hand is that villain hasn't really shown that much strength. All he did was bet the flop. Actually at this SPR and in a mass multiway pot villain SHOULD have a set to bet here or nut wrap or massive wrap or top two but people often don't play like they "should".

if hero pots are button repots, is a fold too exploitable?

at best i think we're oop vs a wrap, and any straighting card on the turn kills our hand. if we bet/call, are we calling to see if he checks a straight card on the turn, or possibly jamming a straight card if he can fold top set?

how deep was the button?

everybody had me covered, I think I had 1200 actually, I folded thinking 90% no one has trip 10s, shipping I probably had 40-45% and getting 4/1. It was the damn wipeout at hold'em as I was leaving an hour before (but they called me for plo as I left), now leaving again "just let me out of here" type move, not good.

Kudos to you for picking up a live tell that the button was going to bet. Now you simply must raise the max and get 900 of your 1200 in when you are in great shape against every hand except top set--and only the button really has top set potential and just bet the flop in position. Calling the 150 just presents more problems unless you hit the 9 or the 5. If you can't automatically pot it here you should have left the moment you tripled up.

I don't play a ton of PLO so if I'm wrong let me know why; this seems obvious that you should do this even if board had a flush draw. On a rainbow board the four callers are probably blocking most of each other's outs.

^^^^ utter truth. Guilty as charged I was gone when I tripled.

Great thread for me to come across ... an interesting blend of answers as well.

Being a feel Player I like that you are paying attention at the table. However, that can (and will) lead to some decisions that pull 'scared money syndrome' into play due to giving Players too much or the 'wrong' credit within your thinking.

I often see Players play the same spot differently with profit v when on a second or third bullet. You are feeling a bit of buyer's remorse based on the comments you heard. How would you feel if you were up against 9785? Your opponent can improve and is blocking your improvement at the same time ... now add in other interested Players that may also be able to improve on the high side of the straight.

You may not have the PLO bankroll for these types of 'auto' spots .. and that's fine. You just also have to be willing to understand and accept that sometimes you mentally will be going 'I just got these chips' or 'I just got even, so do I really want to dump these back in'?

There's another kind of 'feel' in poker ... The type where we want to feel good about our session even though we may have missed on some opportunities. Then we can come back for the next session looking forward instead of back.

Here's my 'disaster' of a fold in my last session ...
In BB and flat an open to $20 w TT96
Flop comes KT6
Very tight SB donks half pot, I flat due to their history of slow PF play
Call from MP, and POT from B ... All-in from SB

SB is 'never' doing this without top or middle set and/or a wrap with flush attached, not possible here
B is shorter than SB, so there wont be a side pot with them
I fold really without much thought ... there will be better spots against SB IMO and without a 'rebate' possible from a side pot I'm willing to forego 7-11% equity on my call 'if' I'm ahead.

B shows 66TJ ... blocking my quads and FH
SB shows KK78 and scoops ... less than he should have ...

'Auto' spots, like AA v KK in NL, are more abundant in PLO but IMO a Player should always consider their state of mind when making decisions as an amateur. I want the 'auto' guys out there calling with middle set because I'm aware of their style and will try to take full advantage of it. GL

your fold answer is a lot different than his
your fold makes total sense with 2 people going nuts

That actually fits the thread title really well because there are obv. situations where middle set is garbabe ... but my hand wasn't one of them and I knew it ... yet acted against my knowledgs. In that sense it controverts the idea that overcoming tilt is about knowledge ... because, again, in that situatiion of tilt we are acting against our knowledge. Don't know if I could be said to be on tilt of a type with my fold, but certainly acting against my knowledge of what was right to do.

Deck kind of gave me a total instant replay on this hand last night. I've got one foot out the door, looking at two more free hands in 1-2-5 PLO game. Up 700, 800 in front of me.

I pick up Kd-Qh-9d-9h. $40 to go 5-handed. Flop is Js-9s-2d. Almost everything the same as the other situation. Middle set, nines both times, next to last position, one foot out the door with a win, late at night, etc. etc. Again, preflop raiser in last position betting when checked around, doesn't figure to be there, just continuation with some kind of hand. Solid player calls the 200. I ship, both call and I get there with back door diamonds.

Point is the uncanny repeat nature of the hand and situation. Like a rerun almost. Well I did better than the total folderino of last time.