Don't see what c/r turn accomplishes except protection. Would bet or c/f the turn.

Pretty decent spot to bluff turn/river depending on run out.

Fair enough. Seems like most everyone is on board with c/c turn being pretty bad. What's the turn sizing cutoff from villain that could possibly turn my hand into being a profitable c/c? Or is there not one? Leading or c/raising just always going to be right if we opt not to c/f?

If you opponent is decent and you don't have a timing tell or something I think you have pretty strong reverse implied odds going into that river OOP.

To answer your first question, for me it would be like $500 or 600.

I don't feel very comfortable trying to extract value on the river with anything but the nuts. Its just going to be a high variance reverse implied odds situation OOP. I mean why would you want that?

I'd lead a lot and CR some.

sick how many people are advocating c/r turn when no one is doing that in game

I thought (and how many others?) that we have double fd cause this stupid layout. So yeah i dont get that turn check call.
I like what ceegee said anyway.

Gordo, why do you feel the need to defend the turn with that specific hand? Don't you think you have enough flushes or better bluff catcher to defend with?

I don't really see how his line is weird at all. You probably assume he is jamming the flop with his whole range and doesn't really value bet the turn too much.

Pretty sure you have misread the suits, Sir.

Not a big fan of that converter, had to check the suits like 4 times. Anyway, if you have a nitty image and feel like he's been trying to run you over and you haven't been playing back at him very hard, it sounds like turn's a clear bet. Even if his plan was to snap off your bluffs originally, I'd think that 6 is probably going to make him reconsider. Once you get to the river this way, I think you definitely lose to too many bluffs to call.

i like c/c turn . dont see why people is saying its bad .

Thabks god , finally someone said it !

Vamooooooooo

Gii

So...the natural follow up is, how do you player the river?

One of the main reasons I don't like the turn C/C is I would have no idea how to play most rivers.

Maybe C/C blanks, fold spades, and ship value cards?

IDK I just don't like it. Its so much easier to play IP.

C/C river exposes you to getting value towned by like KK+ IMO.

Maybe you don't make thin value bets?

Its perfectly reasonable to Check that flop for balance, value bet the turn, and value bet the river w/ AA based on how weak OP's line is.

I would much rather value bet the river w/ AA in villain's position (I am not talking a spade river, I am talking a "blank") and occasionally get called by better hands I would like to C/C the river w/ QQ.

He could have checked the nuts FFS, hoping for a blank turn in order to extract value on later streets.

I guess we must be playing different game. Value-betting 2 streets on 9865x with AA playing PLO, not even NLHE.

I am speechless.

All you have said is how ghastly the thought is of someone VBing the river w/ 1 pair is.

It is high stakes, they started 3 handed, its a 4bet pot (there are over 60 BBs already in the pot), and OPs line is pretty weak.

I am not so much arguing for a river value bet with just a pair of Aces, as I am saying that it is easy for villain to play the river and hard for OP.

What is your plan for the river? Perhaps you are so speechless you cannot tell us?

In all likely-hood the only hands that bet the turn and C the river are like JJ QQ and maybe KK / AA. A good player probably bets air again, and VBs slow played hands or hands that got there.

It seems to me that advocating a turn C/C without a river plan is just burning $6k...

I never advocated turn c/c, I said: "Don't see what c/r turn accomplishes except protection. Would bet or c/f the turn."

I think that our EV of checking the turn mostly come from scenarios when he has something like AKQ8ds and decides not to bluff.

And if he is very AA and AKK-heavy then we want to bluff the turn, and I think that having a gutshot is enough for doing that. However, without having both 7 and T I believe (not 100% sure though) that we should not bluff blank rivers or we would be overbluffing.

And regarding turn c/r. I think that c/r is a good option in one of two cases:

1. When Villain is betting too often vs our check. Don't think people are betting too often as a 4-bettor on 9865 board. If anything they bet too infrenquently.

2. When the board is (much) more favourable for the Villain's range vs ours and we want to check most (all) of our range. Again, clearly not the case here.

flop spr is 1.5 and preflop ranges are narrow. seems like a spot to do lab work and solve. also kinda seems like a spot someone who is rusty might think contains more levels and complexities than it actually does, since it has a flavour of "he did this and prob thought that so i should do this but then he should do this but...", which is kinda fun to wander around in but is in this instance prob somewhat of a distraction.

I would be more worried about seeing KK/AA as a bluff than a hand being jammed for value, which is why I realistically made the post in the first place... to see if people thought those hands would be taking a free showdown given flop/turn action, or if I could more or less rule those out of his range once flop goes c/c with SPR of 1.5...

Folding turn OOP to that sizing with my hand seems like it's leaking massive amount of equity, but I don't have a great solution either. I guess if I'm putting more money into this hand though I should just be leading turn and hoping he gave up with AKxx etc on the flop?

Call it a range merge or a value bluff, or w.e. I just think you have to be aggressive on the turn OOP (or just give up) because at least that way you can take the hand down some % of the time.

If it were me and I had already checked (ha, and I am playing well) I'd either cut my losses or jam it in there. What I would be wary of is compounding my mistakes OOP. Sometimes, against a good opponent, there is just not much you can or should do OOP other than say "nh."

lead flop

Interesting bump. My theory is that this thread was advertising.

Weird thing happen when known-name players come in and post a high-stakes effectively HU hand, i.e., people start doing weird sh*t like suggesting AAxx value-bets the river.

As to the hand itself, I'd range villain quite wide including all AAxx, most KKxxds and a few AKxxds type hands. As such, I sometimes lead the turn for like $8k. I also sometimes c/r over this sizing if I'm feeling brave and/or suicidal. Fold is also reasonable.

As played, I think c/cing turn is ok for sizing like this and smaller if we're planning on open-shoving 7/T/J/Q//some board pairs.

Yeah KK valuebet rivers discussion was absurd, can't say I've never done it but only first the absolute worst players in the world with a stone live read that all but told me their exact hand, would never expect to get it thru on someone with a pulse. Nobody even considering a flop lead for a non pot size shows how far the game has come. It seems mergey, but that's allowed when you are super protected opponent is pretty capped in equity rich hands and it serves direct multi functioning purpose (protection vs hands that only put in money when they beat/bluff u, get cheaper showdown, cooler potential in future). In position can't do anything vs our lead what are they going to do start jamming naked AA, ok good luck. I imagine leading somewhere in range of 20-25% is ideal with a huge chunk of range and even if forced to lead 50% I would.

If i missed flop lead i'd certainly lead turn.

3 handed im probably putting in the 5 bet pre. even if he has AA QQJJss doesnt do that bad. especially given the dynamic you think the guy is trying to run you over. against a nitty player obv take different line. nh though seems like you played it fine imo.

ok quet honest, if you just showed me the hand, I really would just say, it was played by a maniac buissnesman ... but that just shows how different we all play this great game .. now if im btn, getting head up with the other big stack in pos, with any playable hand, I will 4 bet, esp. if i see him as rusty... maby not with my rainbow aa kombis aactually.. as i see it, on flop and turn you can lead 50 % pot for a one time bluff, but otherwize you just acccept that you have lost the hand, being so deep, missing the flop totally. i would just give up if i was rusty , and my opponent was skillful and agressive... your hyand is great if you hit trips, or blockers to nuts... the rest of the time, you gotta let him win some, risking 6 k pre kind of entitels him to that ..? or do you plan to win every hand oop 250 bb deep against a better opponent.. preflop, i would even consider just calling , not that you dont have a great hand, but ower all gameplan is to play as small as possible oop against better player w biiiig stack, with my hole range ... then play big when ip.