Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-22-2013, 09:17 PM   #1
eldodo42
adept
 
eldodo42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: pre-flopping sets
Posts: 1,026
Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Hello all,

I and several others will travel to the Isle of Man next week for discussing PLO rake with Pokerstars: it is commonly believed that PLO rake is too high, and stars will discuss this issue with us.

As we are representing the player community, I'd like to solicit player input about the subject of PLO rake. Many threads have already been written on the subject, but I think that another one leading up to the meeting could help.

In this thread we can discuss anything rake-related. I am personally particularly interested in the following questions:

1. what amount and distribution of rake does the community consider to be "fair"?

2. how does the poker ecosystem work and how does rake affect it?

3. What are some solutions to the rake problem that do not involve actually decreasing the rake percentage, but that the community will still be happy with?

4. What is the right way to compare rake in PLO to rake in other games?

5. What are the most convincing talking points for why rake is too high and should be lowered?

6. How would you try convince stars staff that PLO should be raked differently than NLH (in terms of percentage and rake cap)?

I have my own suggested answers to questions #4 through #6, which I'll share later after the thread develops.

Thanks in advance to anyone who chimes in!
eldodo42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 06:42 AM   #2
blopp
Pooh-Bah
 
blopp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Skjervoy
Posts: 3,756
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Thanks for taking the time to go to IoM and prepare Eldodo. Ill try to give some quick personal thoughts:

1) Same amount of bb/100 as NLHE

2) to much rake make it much harder for anyone to win and money flows upwards so its affects all stakes

3) more vpps/fpps at PLO tables, they have similar stuff going on 6m vs 9m I think on nlhe, def need a structural change over all stakes

4) bb/100 (how much we pay on average each hand not each hour, if Pokerstars wanted the other metric they should charge time rake)

5) / 6/ compare it to NLHE in BB/100, easily show its a different game and betting structure, they already have different rakestructure for same game but different betting structure (FLHE), + community wants it + its good for health of game

Last edited by blopp; 06-23-2013 at 06:59 AM.
blopp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 06:46 AM   #3
Influence
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Norway
Posts: 46
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldodo42 View Post
Hello all,

I and several others will travel to the Isle of Man next week for discussing PLO rake with Pokerstars: it is commonly believed that PLO rake is too high, and stars will discuss this issue with us.

As we are representing the player community, I'd like to solicit player input about the subject of PLO rake. Many threads have already been written on the subject, but I think that another one leading up to the meeting could help.

In this thread we can discuss anything rake-related. I am personally particularly interested in the following questions:

1. what amount and distribution of rake does the community consider to be "fair"?

2. how does the poker ecosystem work and how does rake affect it?

3. What are some solutions to the rake problem that do not involve actually decreasing the rake percentage, but that the community will still be happy with?

4. What is the right way to compare rake in PLO to rake in other games?

5. What are the most convincing talking points for why rake is too high and should be lowered?

6. How would you try convince stars staff that PLO should be raked differently than NLH (in terms of percentage and rake cap)?

I have my own suggested answers to questions #4 through #6, which I'll share later after the thread develops.

Thanks in advance to anyone who chimes in!
1. First look at small stakes and make it beatable, then reduce rake with increasing stakes. And rake should be smaller the lesser players. When you are forced to play more hands the rake has a bigger effect.


3. Give out higer rate of vpp in Omaha (and omaha8 FL, NL and PL) so it makes it faster hit the milestones and higher VIP status. I think a lot of players whould put in more time in the Omaha games just to end up with a higher VIP. I don't have PLO cashgames as my main game annymore becuse of the rakeproblem at low-midstakes. But for a supernova instead of a goldstaus I would put in some time of breakeven/small -ev poker.
Now i play MTT Omaha and omaha8 on stars and other Clients to start enough games at once, but if I reached supernova+ higher vpp rate in omaha i would prob play mtt+cash exclusive on stars.

Bye just lowering the rake it makes it harder to make the higher VIP's I Guess players don't care if they make Money at the tables or from rakeback vip program.

4. Same problem in many cash games FLH, all O8, Stud8 and HU. I think we should look at it to make the rake the same in cash, mtt and sng. Why should it be more expensive to play a cash game? Cash games makes rake faster eaven if the % was the same and no gurantees so it should be less risk also.

IMOP stars care mostly about MTT and being a promotor if theese, which they sure are great at
Influence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 01:07 AM   #4
xsAir
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 56
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

I am a micro player typically play .05/.1 or .1/.2 stakes. I really like the Pokerstars software and I would love to play there but I have found that playing at these stakes without a rakeback deal is a fool's game.

The whole reason many people play poker, especially at low stakes, is because they want to work on improving their game and building a sufficient bankroll to move up. Yes there are of course x percentage of players that will deposit n amount of money, play until it's gone, and vanish... but usually they will dump their money to a player not rake (because they will be broke too fast for the site to make rake).

The allure to micro stakes poker can only really exist if the players believe that with effort, time, and probably money they can improve and move up in stakes. I think underestimating the intelligence of people in that category and assuming they won't figure out that rake is killing their profits is plain and simply incorrect.

From a more marketing oriented perspective Pokerstars spends (insert ridiculous amount) on marketing. From casually watching some of the main themes that appear are that anyone can play, anyone can win, and anyone can go pro. The problem with this is bringing new players to the site alone is just not enough… The players also need stay.

For myself I see micros as a way to verify my skill level before considering moving up. Now if I look at my results at the end of 100k hands and they are not sufficiently high, why would I want to move up in stakes?? So by limiting micro players potential to win early on, Pokerstars is limiting the chance for to make much more rake money as some of those players move up in stakes. I think it is critical to ensure a healthy amount of players move up in stakes or the higher stakes games will begin to dry out. Maybe there would be some “fish” (fish here would be a player that's beating a lower stake but a fish at a higher stake) at higher stakes if lower stakes players could actually ever get to higher stakes…

As it stands the skill level at 0.01/0.02 is high enough that even that is unbeatable without some serious study time -- maybe if more player won and moved up and rake was lower more players would play. At all stake levels there has to be winners, or the entire pyramid will crash on itself.

Additionally, even at micro stakes, the type of player who is likely to move up is the kind of player that takes the time to understand rake structure. With how easy it is to get a rakeback deal on other sites, Pokerstars should really ask themselves if they really want to drive those players away. It might seem like a drop in the bucket if a few micro stakes players leave; but drop by drop micro players have a huge impact on the online poker market.

As far as what is fair: I think two goals need to be met: 1. The poker site wants to be making as much money as possible; 2. There has to be enough winners at each stake level to fuel the pokercology (I think a word for poker ecology is long over due) at all stakes, and there should be a goal of achieving a more linear progression.

For example, 20% of players are beating $0.01/0.02, 20% are beating 0.02/0.05, but only 10% of players are beating 0.05/0.1, this means that there will be an exponential decrease in players moving into all stakes above 0.10/0.20. In other words it creates a deadlocks progress all the way up.

So I think it really comes down to how poker sites actually want to position themselves... 1. Are they more positioning themselves to entertain; or 2. would becoming just as huge as say stock trading in terms of money be worth trying for.

What poker sites should think about is how they can assist as many players as possible (for example by making rake more fair) to achieve professional status. If you gridlock players out of professional status levels (say 100NL), or it's too difficult to get there, fewer will make it. In the long term, sure there most likely is money to be made by bottom feeding off people's $20 deposits, but the real money, and the real status comes with growth, and to grow they must ensure as many players as possible can achieve professional status.

If poker growth follows Elliott theory (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_wave_principle), we are probably on the cusp of the biggest poker boom ever. Just like the governments cut interest rates to boost investment, reducing rake will also increase people's willingness to invest money in becoming skilled poker players. I firmly believe though that this boom will not start until micro stakes rake is reduced on the largest poker sites.

For rake to become compatible with long term development of poker players it needs to scale with stakes (e.g. $0.01/0.02 needs to pay proportionally the same rake as $100/200). Additionally, the amount chosen should be chosen to ensure as much as possible that people can move linearly through the stakes and achieve professional status as often as possible. In the long term, poker sites will make the most money off high volume professional players, and those aspiring to become. Poker still has to transition from primarily a form of entertainment (like Bingo), to a form of investment (like the stock market). Rake is an insurmountable barrier.

Last edited by xsAir; 06-25-2013 at 01:13 AM.
xsAir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 03:33 AM   #5
Influence
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Norway
Posts: 46
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by xsAir View Post

As it stands the skill level at 0.01/0.02 is high enough that even that is unbeatable without some serious study time -- maybe if more player won and moved up and rake was lower more players would play. At all stake levels there has to be winners, or the entire pyramid will crash on itself.


There are few players making a living of the micros but they live in countries where the cost og life is really low. I find it much more fishier a bit higher, more tilt and gamble. Recs just playing for fun. But there should really be more rewards playing as high as you can afford so not every Level get so pro Heavy.

Like poker pros in my mind is high stakes player not somebody grinding 0,10 tables and 5$sngs. I really understand why they do it, but it can't be good for the pokerecology. Some of the problem might be not enough rewards moving up in stakes. I Guess the "New to game" tables they have at Full tilt is good model making poker more fun for the New players. Annybody got the same view?

And some promotion for cash game poker asswell. Just look at the noumber of tables during milestones.
Influence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 03:50 AM   #6
Hoopman20
veteran
 
Hoopman20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,366
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

I think before discussing anything you should get answers to these 3 questions. Without knowing these 3 things I don't see how any discussion you have could be fruitful.
1) Does PS care about the integrity of the game?
2) Is market stability and the sustainability of games a chief concern for PS?
3) Are they intent on competing with winning players or are they open to putting more focus on expanding the size of the market?

#3 is key because right now PS is focused on making sure that winning players don't make too much money away from them rather than focusing on charging a fair price for their product and attempting to expand the market. They are actually constricting the market by being so greedy. If winning players win rates doubled overnight PS would respond by doubling the rake to govern the amount of money winning players take out of the system. In a short term window that seems brilliant but long term PS needs to realize they are governing the market growth proportionally to the amount they govern the win rates.
Hoopman20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 04:13 AM   #7
Influence
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Norway
Posts: 46
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoopman20 View Post
3) Are they intent on competing with winning players or are they open to putting more focus on expanding the size of the market?

#3 is key because right now PS is focused on making sure that winning players don't make too much money away from them rather than focusing on charging a fair price for their product and attempting to expand the market. They are actually constricting the market by being so greedy. If winning players win rates doubled overnight PS would respond by doubling the rake to govern the amount of money winning players take out of the system. In a short term window that seems brilliant but long term PS needs to realize they are governing the market growth proportionally to the amount they govern the win rates.
The more winners "Famous" players should be a good adervertisement in itself and good way to expand the market bye creating dreams of other to achive the same thing.
Influence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 05:34 AM   #8
sauhund
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: osiasgriffin
Posts: 5,772
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

they really need to change things for the lowstakes/micros player since it will eventually all dry out and if no one moves up mid/high stakes game will dry up too.

1. make a beatable capped rake at micros to enable players to move up and therefore play longer on the site, thus creating more rake for the site long term

2. get some sort of monthly rakeback deal. anything under supernova really struggles with the current system, and it´s virtually impossible for a normal, non 24/7 mass tabling lowstakes grinder to reach supernova.
sauhund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 06:01 AM   #9
xsAir
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 56
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Like poker pros in my mind is high stakes player not somebody grinding 0,10 tables and 5$sngs. I really understand why they do it, but it can't be good for the pokerecology. Some of the problem might be not enough rewards moving up in stakes. I Guess the "New to game" tables they have at Full tilt is good model making poker more fun for the New players. Annybody got the same view?
I agree with you regarding pro level players. But the problem with the current system is that at high stakes players pay less rake and get much better rakeback (assuming they put in a decent volume). The game itself is much more lopsided against the micros players at lower stakes. I think in the past low stakes were probably much easier to beat then now (I wasn't playing then but that's what I seem to read everywhere). The only thing going for players at micro stakes compared to higher stakes are a worse player pool, but the game itself is much less favorable (except for the skill difference of course).

The problem with having such a lopsided rake structure is it makes moving up to higher levels much more difficult then it should be. And no I am not claiming that it's impossible, nor am I saying rake will necessarily hold back players who are meant to move up. But what I am saying is that higher rake at micros reduces the number of players who move up in each stake, and keeps them stuck at micros in turn raising the difficulty of micros and reducing the player pool at higher stakes.

The current rake/rakeback system on Pokerstars right now is kind of like this: you are a millionaire, so u pay 10% tax, I work at wal mart and pay %50. There is no way this can result in a sustainable economy.

The reason why I mention pro level players is because once someone is able to dedicate themselves to playing full time, they are all of a sudden able to put in a lot more volume, which in turn means a huge jump in profit that player generates in rake for the poker site. So my point is that it in Pokerstars best interest to give micro players a better chance allowing the better players to move up all the way up the ranks and increase the pool of players who "made it" to the pro levels. When players succeed Pokerstars succeeds.

It's kind of like the Chris Moneymaker effect. If you have large amounts of new players moving up through the ranks, buzz is generated which makes poker more attractive in general as well. The main point I am making is that ensuring a healthy number of winners at each stake is critical to a new poker boom being possible. Keeping winning players winning more and weaker players on micro stakes is a sure fire way to dry the pokercology. Even a small reduction in rake would probably allow a very large number of players to move up through the ranks at least by one level, which is how it should be.

There just aren't that many people who like to deposit 10k and lose it all at 1k NL. So it's all regs vs regs at that level (at least on the training video I watched lol), and not enough people moving up to keep things flowing. So Pokerstars spends tones of money marketing their site, to try and attract whales to keep the games going, when instead if they used that money to reduce rake and increase the probability of skilled players moving through the ranks.
xsAir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 01:18 PM   #10
blopp
Pooh-Bah
 
blopp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Skjervoy
Posts: 3,756
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
1. First look at small stakes and make it beatable, then reduce rake with increasing stakes. And rake should be smaller the lesser players. When you are forced to play more hands the rake has a bigger effect.


3. Give out higer rate of vpp in Omaha (and omaha8 FL, NL and PL) so it makes it faster hit the milestones and higher VIP status. I think a lot of players whould put in more time in the Omaha games just to end up with a higher VIP. I don't have PLO cashgames as my main game annymore becuse of the rakeproblem at low-midstakes. But for a supernova instead of a goldstaus I would put in some time of breakeven/small -ev poker.
Now i play MTT Omaha and omaha8 on stars and other Clients to start enough games at once, but if I reached supernova+ higher vpp rate in omaha i would prob play mtt+cash exclusive on stars.

Bye just lowering the rake it makes it harder to make the higher VIP's I Guess players don't care if they make Money at the tables or from rakeback vip program.

4. Same problem in many cash games FLH, all O8, Stud8 and HU. I think we should look at it to make the rake the same in cash, mtt and sng. Why should it be more expensive to play a cash game? Cash games makes rake faster eaven if the % was the same and no gurantees so it should be less risk also.

IMOP stars care mostly about MTT and being a promotor if theese, which they sure are great at
I think this is a good argument, also lower rake (your 1#) so people can play more hands even in 6/9m makes for a more fun game imo.
blopp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 05:31 PM   #11
moonship
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 542
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

First and foremost, the rake caps on Pot Limit should NOT be the same as the rake caps on No Limit. Period.

I've often heard No Limit called "big bet" poker. And there in lies the difference between NL and PL. People on both the player side and the poker site side need to come around to the reality that Pot Limit is not "big bet" poker. Pot Limit is "medium bet" poker. Let that sink in for a second. Pot Limit is "medium bet" poker with a ton of medium sized pots that are getting over raked. Pokerstars' rake chart needs separate columns for PL and NL rake caps. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if the rake caps for PL should fairly equate to like only 75% or less of the NL rake caps.

All that other stuff like VPP are just tweaks. It is the establishment of unique PL rake caps that need the first and foremost attention.

Last edited by moonship; 06-25-2013 at 05:40 PM.
moonship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 05:41 PM   #12
Borys313
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Manchester
Posts: 2,853
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

1. Can we have the minimum buy-in raised at stakes up to 1/2 PLO, where it is clearly impossible to win with a 40-50BB strategy. Having two half stackers at every zoom table just makes everyone a pre RB loser.

2. I would rather see increased VPP/hand for PLO then lowering rake. Its no good for me to pay 30% less rake if I cant hit SNE and will receive 40% less RB in the end.
Borys313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 06:05 PM   #13
moonship
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 542
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
1. Can we have the minimum buy-in raised at stakes up to 1/2 PLO, where it is clearly impossible to win with a 40-50BB strategy. Having two half stackers at every zoom table just makes everyone a pre RB loser.
I agree. The game/pots need to play bigger especially if the PL rake/rake-caps don't get reduced. When the pot exceeds the rake cap, that particular hand is played with a rake discount. Not enough hands are being played with rake discounts when several players are playing 40-50BB stacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
2. I would rather see increased VPP/hand for PLO then lowering rake. Its no good for me to pay 30% less rake if I cant hit SNE and will receive 40% less RB in the end.
I disagree. I cringe a little when I see a post amounting to something like "don't lower the rake if it means I'll get less rakeback." Your example of lowering the rake 30% but it costing you 40% is a dangerously oversimplified example. Your numbers could be wrong. And/or lowering the PL rake 30% could be the boom that makes PLO overtake NLH as the most popular game making your game of choice a yum yum money fest for you in the future. Etc. Etc. Furthermore lowering the rake and increasing the VIP rewards program are two separate issues. You can visit a VIP rewards thread to try and get the rewards bumped up, but don't match that with a "don't lower the rake" mentality.
moonship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 07:26 PM   #14
Borys313
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Manchester
Posts: 2,853
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

We all have to realize that lowering the rake at lowstakes has to go together with raising the minimum buy-in or introducing drastic anti ratholing measures, otherwise the game will become littered with guys folding everything and 3betting or limp-3betting top 10%.
Borys313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 11:10 PM   #15
cbt
veteran
 
cbt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hell
Posts: 2,960
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
1. Can we have the minimum buy-in raised at stakes up to 1/2 PLO, where it is clearly impossible to win with a 40-50BB strategy.
What makes you think that it's clearly impossible?
I'd like to bet against you .

Besides you don't want to take the option for fish away to buy in short, so it should rather be via a ratholing solution... if at all.
cbt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 01:02 AM   #16
Borys313
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Manchester
Posts: 2,853
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbt View Post
What makes you think that it's clearly impossible?
I'd like to bet against you .

Besides you don't want to take the option for fish away to buy in short, so it should rather be via a ratholing solution... if at all.
Graph or it didnt happen. I have practiced the noble art of ratholing for many years and never met a single winning PLO shortie at 1/2.

Played some zoom200 this month, reg results for you to enjoy, the alias is from 20 nicknames that played the most hands.

[img]http://s8.************/c0p9mm6o1/ZOOMreg.jpg[/img]

[img]http://s9.************/r83vku4a7/PLOzoom.png[/img]

I dont have a big enough database to give the exact number but NLHE fish with 40%+ VPIP lose way more per hand then PLO fish with 40%+ VPIP in mine, reasonable guess would be that PLO winrates should be smaller even if the games were rake free.

Last edited by Borys313; 06-26-2013 at 01:07 AM.
Borys313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 02:00 AM   #17
cbt
veteran
 
cbt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hell
Posts: 2,960
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input




That's 0-40bbs.

Obv having better selection with reg tables than you with zoom, but just making a point that it's not impossibru.
cbt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 09:06 AM   #18
moonship
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 542
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

When I look at Borys313's and cbt's charts it is clear there is nice money to be made in PLO if the rake wasn't so insanely high.
moonship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 11:23 AM   #19
BetaPro
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,031
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonship View Post
When I look at Borys313's and cbt's charts it is clear there is nice money to be made in PLO if the rake wasn't so insanely high.
I'm all for rake reduction, who isn't lol. But Borys presents some ridiculous points that it makes me think that he's leveling. He's been saying that 1/2 isn't beatable with a shortstack for a while now, yet he himself continues to do so, and play horribly, then comes here to blame it on shortstacks (himself). It's so funny.
BetaPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 12:00 PM   #20
Borys313
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Manchester
Posts: 2,853
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Edge<Rake and you lose, 50bb is generally lower edge etc.

To my best knowledge I am just guilty on the count of playing horrible and not 40bbing small stakes PLO, also cbt just blew my mind, he must have some special powers. On the zoom list I posted there are some 50bb players and they are all in the red both winnings and EV adjusted winnings.

EDIT: I dont have any more love for SSS guys then the rest of us.

Last edited by Borys313; 06-26-2013 at 12:06 PM.
Borys313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 12:25 PM   #21
BetaPro
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,031
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

I just checked mine for <50bb for 1/2 plo, which is my main game, I have a higher winrate than cbt with a bigger sample size.
I could post screenshot but I don't think that's necessary.

Well of course 50bb has lower edge, but saying that it's unbeatable is just very uninformed.

Still, lower rakes please, but I have no real arguments other than I want to pay less for my stuff.
BetaPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 03:43 PM   #22
moonship
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 542
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetaPro View Post
I'm all for rake reduction, who isn't lol. But Borys presents some ridiculous points that it makes me think that he's leveling. He's been saying that 1/2 isn't beatable with a shortstack for a while now, yet he himself continues to do so, and play horribly, then comes here to blame it on shortstacks (himself). It's so funny.
I wasn't backing up Borys313 short stacking comments. In post #13, I simply stated that, "if" the rake/rake-caps don't get reduced "then" one option to the insane rake is to play the game deeper. Deeper stacks would thereby create more pots that go well beyond the rake-caps and have a rake discount on that hand. About the only other idea that gets floated around here is more VIP rewards.

Betpro, I've heard very few Plan B's from players. If they don't lower the rake/rake-caps, do you have at least a Plan B idea to share? The reason I ask is because I've seen plenty of your posts in several threads and essentially you often come off as the guy who posts stuff amounting to "don't change anything about the current state of poker because I'm a short stacking angle shooting scumbag who is happy with the current state of the game."

Last edited by moonship; 06-26-2013 at 04:03 PM.
moonship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 04:01 PM   #23
SeaKing
Pooh-Bah
 
SeaKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,262
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

All the best shorstack players who would win prerakeback at 1/2 are playing and winning at higher than that, pretty much the only players currently shorstacking "professionally" at these stakes are players whose games are mediocre overall so they actually lose prerakeback and the only way they can actually win is when you include the VPP and FPP rewards that come with raking > $100,000 a year.

Btw, cbt, how come I have hands playing vs you at 2/4 in the last 3 months yet you don't have them in your own pokertracker screenshot? Anyway what Borys said still holds true, he said a winning 1/2 shortstack and if you look at your own data all your winning are coming from .5/1 and you can say with maybe 5% confidence you are actually playing winning poker at 1/2 with your James Bond EVbb/100 lol

The difference between a winning shortstack at .5/1 and 1/2 is absolutely enormous due to the typical table makeup at each limit. At 1/2 the average table is something like 4 slightly winning nitty regs, 1 slightly losing nitty reg, and 1 recreational, at .5/1 you can find tables with all 5 other players playing > 40 vpip that you can massively exploit with a shortstack despite paying a lot more rake relative to 1/2.
SeaKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 04:07 PM   #24
Mig
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Flopping like a sucker
Posts: 2,897
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Also 150k hands of 1.75bb/100 win with the kind of variance PLO has and ur maginal winrate is loltastic. Probably, if you wanted a confidence threshold of +95% you'd still find that your lowest possible winrate would be negative.

And if your 150k hands are over a decent time period (which would probably imply you table selected a minimum) this would further prove what borys is saying... Playing 40bb poker, there is a **** load of line ups where you are massively -ev prerakeback considering how big the rake is...
Mig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 04:30 PM   #25
cbt
veteran
 
cbt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hell
Posts: 2,960
Re: Stars PLO Rake Meeting Next Week: Requesting Player Input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
1. Can we have the minimum buy-in raised at stakes up to 1/2 PLO, where it is clearly impossible to win with a 40-50BB strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaKing View Post
Btw, cbt, how come I have hands playing vs you at 2/4 in the last 3 months yet you don't have them in your own pokertracker screenshot?
I bolded the important part because you still might miss why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
Also 150k hands of 1.75bb/100 win with the kind of variance PLO has and ur maginal winrate is loltastic.
Yea i know it's #samplesize and wouldn't have posted it if borys didn't come up with the <50k sample .
On the bright side it's not directly comparable to 100bb+ samplesizes because shortstacking
has lower variance, so it's not as little as you might think.
cbt is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online