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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

View Poll Results: What should be the minimum buy-in for the PLO standard cash tables on Pokerstars?
Keep 30bb as it currently is 23 12.23%
Raise it to 40bb 18 9.57%
Raise it to 50bb 114 60.64%
Raise it to 65+bb 33 17.55%
Voters: 188. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-28-2012, 10:05 AM   #1
napsus
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regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Hi everyone,

I created this poll to give Pokerstars representatives an indication of PLO players’ wishes regarding the minimum buy-in for the PLO standard cash money tables, which currently have minimum buy-in of 30bbs and maximum buy-in of 100bbs. I believe a poll is a good the good way to get a popular opinion regarding the issue at hand, rather than opinions scattered in multiple threads in various subforums.

The topic has been discussed in this thread on Internet poker subforum (most of the opinions start from post #712 but there are PLO related comments elsewhere in the thread too. I will not quote them here). We will move the PLO discussion to this thread from now on. I will notify the Internet poker thread of this fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice View Post
---
PLO

Shortstacking exists at all games and leech is still a problem -- even in LHE. There exists no clear solutions longterm for leech. PLO is a separate topic that is much less established than NLH offerings. PLO regs need to decide for themselves what directions the games should go. One can either go with a “one game” approach or a “two game” approach (one cap game + one normal game.) Of course deep tables should still be offered. I offer no suggestion for fixing PLO in terms of offerings (“30-100 vs what?”) as I don’t believe I have enough understanding to recommend one solution over another. I recommend that PLO regs discuss publicly what solutions seem to be the best as far as structures offered goes, and maybe even conduct an informal vote in their respective threads.

---

You can cast your vote by selection an option (only one) on the poll above and if you wish to leave your comments/reasoning in this thread, please go ahead. I would highly appreciate if the voters were actual PLO players, preferably playing the Pokerstars games in question.

The poll is open for 4 days, after which I will make a concluding statement/summary and send it to Pokerstars representative via PM, and also post the same statement in this thread.

Please keep the discussion in this thread for MINIMUM BUY-IN FOR STANDARD TABLES ONLY and let’s leave the other topics (HU, antes and table speed discussion) out of this thread. We’ll discuss those issues in due time. Thanks for understanding.

Thanks and regards,
napsus




--------

CONCLUSION from post #229

As a conclusion after the poll is closed, it seems like the vast majority (87.77%) of 2p2 members (majority of whom are very active players) want to minimum buy-in at the Pokerstars PLO cash tables to be raised.

Of the 87.77% majority who want the minimum buy-in to raised, most voters see the 50bb minimum buy-in as the preferred option, while 65+bb and 40bb options received some votes too.

Based on the conversation it seems that consensus is that the 30bb minimum is too small because it's already effecting the flow of the game, especially at midstakes (and higher) where the problem is imminent. The 65+bb option received votes too, but the general feeling is that this would be too high, as it would affect recreational players too much and probably cause confusion.

50bb minimum buy-in received the most votes and was strongly defended with arguments from several high stakes players. 40bb was seen as an option too (11% of players who voted for raise in min buy-in voted for 40bb option), but it didn't receive as many votes as 50bb minimum buy-in (70% of all who voted to raise min buy-in).

The Pokerstars suggestion of "If players were not able to consistently buy in for the minimum, leave after gaining chips, and buy-in for the minimum again at another table... would the current 30bb minimum buy-in still be a big issue for players?" didn't seem to be very popular and was seen problematic by posters who commented on it.

FTP has tables with 75bb minimum buy-in, so how would 2p2 members feel about a "2p2 consensus compromise" of 45bb in case Stars is not willing to listen to 2p2 majority and make it 50bb? This would be a round a number at most stakes (excluding $0.02/0.05 and $0.25/0.50).

Last edited by napsus; 12-04-2012 at 12:23 AM. Reason: added conclusion
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:40 AM   #2
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

40,50>>>30>>>65+.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:44 AM   #3
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

50 >>> 65+ >>> 40 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 30
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:46 AM   #4
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by validand notinuse View Post
40,50>>>30>>>65+.
Agreed. I think 65+ is pushing it and just unnecessary. Remember, we don't want to tailor games to our exact preferences and chase off everyone who doesn't wish to conform. That would be silly. We just want to put an end to the leeching and exploiting behaviour that 30bb stacks pollute the game with. I voted 50bb.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:48 AM   #5
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by blopp View Post
50 > 65+ >>> 40 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 30
not trolling, but im pretty sure ive seen you shortstacking 5/10 a decent amount over the last few months.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:52 AM   #6
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

I think blopp said in a recent post that even though he has been shorting some games lately he still prefers and believes in higher minimum buyins. I think the same would apply to a lot of players. Watch the highest stakes games and you'll see plenty of what most would consider to be "the best" PLO players buying in for the minimum. That doesn't mean they're hypocritical for wanting the minimum increased. It could be that they're buying in short to mitigate their disadvantage vs other shortstackers, or out of bankroll considerations, or whatever really.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:56 AM   #7
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

y i get that obv, if there'd been one less ">" before the 30 id've left it alone
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:04 AM   #8
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Roy is spot on. I def have shorted midstakes+ when its most EV and / or to be prepared to play highstakes. I played quite a bit cap as well pre BFI on FTP.

Im open about quite a bit of my volume being short and that I play in short only games. Posted this in internet poker a few days ago where I quantify it as 1/3 of yearly volume (that Ive not checked just guestimating).

Quote:
Originally Posted by blopp View Post
Back to the PLO discussion (I cant comment on the NLHE part since I dont play any volume of it).

Ive discussed this lots with other regs, booth short/midstackers and fullstackers, including a few SNE's. Im myself a second time SNE playing 1/3 my volume 30bb and the rest with 75+.

The solution is actually v simple and already suggested in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by krmont22 View Post
50-100 and 100-250 w/ ante for PLO please


The current system of 30-100 (unlike 40-100 for nlhe) is very hard for anyone to beat if everyone 30bb it but the edge is there if others fullstack and/or splash a ton pre. The winrate even for some of the tableselecters that are great booth short and fullstacked is surprisingly low even with one (semi) fish in the game for them to play.

I see a huge difference even vs the FTP cap tables (40bb cap) where its more postflop play, compared to the strategy of in 30bb plo to potcall most pots as 3betor. In 40bb poker its much more unsound due to stack to pot ratio.

I think 50-100 and 100-250a will make it super good and think a compromise with 40-100bb and 100-250a is a no brainer for Stars that will not alienate anyone.

Lastly today system is bether then any solution including more table types like cap or shallow that already have been tried and failed at Stars, but I 100% belive the minimum buyinn is to small, any raise is very much welcome (I think even 40bb minimum is a huge win).
This is obvs my opinion, and I respect others think differently.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:12 AM   #9
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

i think a big reason cap games failed at stars is that they didnt go with the ftp 40bb system. i used to quite enjoy grinding cap when i was hungover/slightly off game/not really in mood to think that hard etc.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:24 AM   #10
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by validand notinuse View Post
not trolling, but im pretty sure ive seen you shortstacking 5/10 a decent amount over the last few months.
I do also shortstack abit myself (30bb) beacuse I think its the most +EV thing to do in some situations, but this doesnt mean that I support 30bb min buyin, because I think it ruins the game.

+1 to 50-100bb, and 100-250ante

Last edited by grinder10; 11-28-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:36 AM   #11
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Where's the 20BB option? :P

But I do currently shortstack the majority of the time at high stakes to reduce variance. Seriously agree with people that 40 is probably best all around (to keep recreational players happy). Although I would like it to be 50. Anything higher will be terrible for the games I think.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:53 AM   #12
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

I want 50 BB
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:08 PM   #13
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
As a longterm HSPLO player I have to say most of the discussion that goes down about this topic is just a repetitive circlejerk of self-serving rubbish. I would also like to comment that I have infinite experience both fullstacking and shortstacking PLO, both to great success.

Firstly, the point that the "biggest losers" all love ante games or whatever the **** is obviously moot. For one, all this proves is that antes make fish lose faster (terrible).

Another important point here is that the "biggest losers" list are not the people targeted by this discussion. 5/6 of them aren't actual fish anyway. It's a red herring. Who we are targeting are the losing recreational players, as always. A point that is often lost in the midst of everyones own needs.

FTP have roughly the correct system. Fish LOVE playing short. To deny that you'd be both a moron and a liar. Both! They love the feeling of doubling up and moving up in stakes. You see this all the time. ALL THE TIME. The majority of recreational players buy in short, and a large percentage of them leave to go to new tables when doubling up, or move up stakes where possible.

FTP have something to satisfy everyone.
-They have shallow tables, so the fish who like buying short and running up a stack can.
-They have cap tables, so fish who like buying in short can play shortstack poker all day without having to hit and run and jump around
-They have deep tables, which mostly satisfy the needs of the regulars. On FTP the buyin in the ante games is also less demanding, so other players will be more tempted to dabble in them. On stars this is not the case, and is reflected at 10/20 up by the fact that the deep games only run with regulars 95%+ of the time.

If you made all the minimum buyins higher all you would get is fish moving down in limits and losing a lot faster. This is obviously terrible for the games. Most peoples attitudes towards this is "fish will like what I tell them to like". What a stupid slogan to bandy around. We should be catering to fish at all possible junctions within reason.

Another hidden benefit of the shortstacking games is that regulars are much more inclined to play eachother/start games. This is much better for the economy - The biggest problem with online right now is the predatory nature of the games, and shortstacking really helps reduce that. I mean, if you look on stars, if there were no shortstackers, we would end up with the NL lobby.

Cliffs:
FTP have the right idea. roughly;
20-50bb game,
40-60bb cap game,
60-200bb buyin ante game

Anywhere thereabouts.

PS. the major game killer is the HU tables.

Also +1 to killing fast tables. What the hell is up with those?
Here is my post about this issue.

Extra notes-

I would like to point out that although it is a popular opinion that the minbuy should be raised, those supporting it are unable to provide a valid reason as to why. Mostly the reason is "it would suit me better".

"Shortstackers are ruining the games, but I don't want to play ante games, because theres not enough fish in ante games. Therefore, the solution is to make the fish buyin with more money and move down".

Personally, I'd prefer 40bb. The reason fulltilts buyin system works is because the shallow buyin does not exceed the cap game buyin. Ultimately, All the players follow the fish, and the fish like shortstacking. The only discussion here should be how to facilitate this best.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:22 PM   #14
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deldar182 View Post
Here is my post about this issue.

Extra notes-

I would like to point out that although it is a popular opinion that the minbuy should be raised, those supporting it are unable to provide a valid reason as to why. Mostly the reason is "it would suit me better".

"Shortstackers are ruining the games, but I don't want to play ante games, because theres not enough fish in ante games. Therefore, the solution is to make the fish buyin with more money and move down".

Personally, I'd prefer 40bb. The reason fulltilts buyin system works is because the shallow buyin does not exceed the cap game buyin. Ultimately, All the players follow the fish, and the fish like shortstacking. The only discussion here should be how to facilitate this best.
when was the last time u played deep witout a billionare at the table ?
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:25 PM   #15
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Deldar for president. Bring back the 20bb shove fest.

What data do you have to corroborate your sayings. I personally see way more fishes playing 50-100bb than 30-50bb. Sure fishes like to play short but not 20bb short.

People like you who want to keep the BI shorts aren't doing it either for the fishes. You are doing it because you want to use that mathematical edge it gives you over the others regs playing full. Just my 2 cents. Not sure you are really the type to play full stacked vs a line up of studs. Are you the type to start tables as well ?

nits gonna nit
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:30 PM   #16
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

I think it's unlikely that PS will just increase the buyin to whatever people here are asking without trying to accommodate those who want to shortstack, if a 50bb min game is indeed created, it will result in the games back to like it was last year, a shallow game and a standard game.

You guys can cry then.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:32 PM   #17
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
Deldar for president. Bring back the 20bb shove fest.

What data do you have to corroborate your sayings. I personally see way more fishes playing 50-100bb than 30-50bb. Sure fishes like to play short but not 20bb short.

People like you who want to keep the BI shorts aren't doing it either for the fishes. You are doing it because you want to use that mathematical edge it gives you over the others regs playing full. Just my 2 cents. Not sure you are really the type to play full stacked vs a line up of studs. Are you the type to start tables as well ?

nits gonna nit
Not saying that 20bb is more popular, but the shallow games on FTP(20-40bb) are without a doubt, more popular than 40-100 games. If you can't see from this fact that shallow is so much more popular than deep games, I'm done arguing.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:41 PM   #18
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

40>>30>50>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>65 for me.

I think the games are pretty healthy right now, so I dont think anything should be really changed.

If anything should be changed it should be the antes that make up 1/10th of the action. make them more appealling for people to start. I dont get why everyone in here preaches that they love them but wont start games vs each other. Well, i do know, its because there arent any fish playing them because most dont like them, so you're not willing to play in a tougher game.

Id suggest maybe lowering the ante buyin to 80bbs and reducing the % of the ante.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:43 PM   #19
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

This poll is also biased, as it just takes the pros opinion, which will of course be to increase it, as it gives everyone more of an edge over the recreational players.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:43 PM   #20
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
Deldar for president. Bring back the 20bb shove fest.

What data do you have to corroborate your sayings. I personally see way more fishes playing 50-100bb than 30-50bb. Sure fishes like to play short but not 20bb short.

People like you who want to keep the BI shorts aren't doing it either for the fishes. You are doing it because you want to use that mathematical edge it gives you over the others regs playing full. Just my 2 cents. Not sure you are really the type to play full stacked vs a line up of studs. Are you the type to start tables as well ?

nits gonna nit
Look at the 25 50 games at any given time. 25/50 action is totally sick- games run round the clock.

Now remove all the players with less than 100bbs.
Now remove all the players with less than 70bbs.
Now remove all the tables without massive fish.

tadaaaaa

ps. you got some interesting views for someone I've never played
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:43 PM   #21
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Lol where did I talk about 100-250 ? I hate 100-250. Too many blinds have to go in with medium pairs

And I have not much vs fish shortstacking, I have against the pro ratholer SSer, who hits and run and make the game unplayable at 1/2-2/4. It's not uncommon to have 3 of these pro at 1 table during the day. I know you guys prefer to bumhunt and play 20bbs when the tables are too tough and are trying to make us believe you are doing it for the fishes and not your bottom line but c'mon at least stop hiding behind your nobles virtues.

Last edited by Mig; 11-28-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:50 PM   #22
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaski101 View Post
I think the games are pretty healthy right now, so I dont think anything should be really changed.

If anything should be changed it should be the antes that make up 1/10th of the action. make them more appealling for people to start. I dont get why everyone in here preaches that they love them but wont start games vs each other. Well, i do know, its because there arent any fish playing them because most dont like them, so you're not willing to play in a tougher game.

Id suggest maybe lowering the ante buyin to 80bbs and reducing the % of the ante.
good post

A fair conclusion to draw from this poll would be that "many 2+2 posters dislike shortstackers", which is relatively useless.

Last edited by Deldar182; 11-28-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:52 PM   #23
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
Lol where did I talk about 100-250 ? I hate 100-250. Too many blinds have to go in with medium pairs

And I have not much vs fish shortstacking, I have against the pro ratholer SSer, who hits and run and make the game unplayable at 1/2-2/4. It's not uncommon to have 3 of these pro at 1 table during the day. I know you guys prefer to bumhunt and play 20bbs when the tables are too tough and are trying to make us believe you are doing it for the fishes and not your bottom line but c'mon at least stop hiding behind your nobles virtues.
Summarized:
I like fish who shortstack
I don't like regs who shortstack
Ante games are tough, because theres no shortstacks

ok

Last edited by Deldar182; 11-28-2012 at 02:08 PM. Reason: btw I play 40 mostly
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:07 PM   #24
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Your cliffs are that we all are selfserving circlejerking moron people. While you are the knight in shining armor caring about the games and fishes. Get real.

And while we are at it, if people get heavily bumhunted on the 6m ante tables they per definition need to be (reg)fishes. 3/6 on that list have been hunted pretty hard most year.

PS if fishes dont like it they will just migrate to FTP that will still offer all the cap and shallow games you like. (Can even insta transfer money there from Stars).

Stars have nothing to loose trying that out as FTP owner either.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:11 PM   #25
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Re: regarding possible minimum buy-in changes at Pokerstars PLO standard cash tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaski101 View Post
This poll is also biased, as it just takes the pros opinion, which will of course be to increase it, as it gives everyone more of an edge over the recreational players.
This, I didn't even bother to vote yet cause it feels pointless. It's like trying to elect the US president by looking at the result of one state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blopp View Post
Your cliffs are that we all are selfserving circlejerking moron people. While you are the knight in shining armor caring about the games and fishes. Get real.

And while we are at it, if people get heavily bumhunted on the 6m ante tables they per definition need to be (reg)fishes. 3/6 on that list have been hunted pretty hard most year.

PS if fishes dont like it they will just migrate to FTP that will still offer all the cap and shallow games you like. (Can even insta transfer money there from Stars).

Stars have nothing to loose trying that out as FTP owner either.
So, if you don't play full stack, you can GTFO of stars? That's racist.
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