Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-16-2018, 06:49 AM   #1
therunbad
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 47
QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Hi Im new here and want to get your opinion on this hand.
I played this hand in a live 5/5 PLO game.
I was the bigstack with over 2k
BB 1,9k

I have QJd 78h UTG and open for pot, its a very soft table with full of recreational players. In this game there was no 3betting going on without double suited connected AA.

we play 7handed and everybody called except the SB, so far so good.

the flop comes out pretty nice with KdTd6h, so we have a open ended straight flush draw and a backdoor flush draw.

i lead for a little over half pot and got 2 callers.
The turn is a 5h giving me 2 open ended straight flush draws.

At this point having no showdown value but a ton of outs, i decided to pot the turn, and got a call and a repot from the BB.

At this point i know he has slowplayed KK, the pot is huge, i have Q high and
i was sure i get the right odds to call it off against top set but the Cutoff who called my potsize bet is mostlikely to have a big draw himself a hand like Ax of diamonds with probably QJ aswell, but at this point he had only 100 left so i wasnt worried about him.

As you know nobody in the history of plo bricked 2flush draws
I called it off, as i knew BB shows all black KK22 blocking none of my outs.
the cutoff showing AQJT with no suit, very questionable play in my opinion.

We run it 2times, both time the BB makes a boat and scoops a big pot.

Probably helpful to say that i run horrible since 4months, loosing with flopped
top boats against rivered bigger boats also as quads against running royals, flopped top sets against runner runner flushes. im just sick of it to loose all the time with the best hand on the flop against a dead hand.

Im normally a winning player, living from cashgame poker and i also paid college with poker. Variance hit me very hard in the last months, Im on such a big downswing I lost nearly over 40.000 over the past 4 months.


So my question is would u guys have played the hand differently, maybe more passive, when u know u dont hitting any cards? And when you hit you always get sucked out on the river?

Should i take a break from poker?
I dont know what is going on, i feel like getting robbed loosing all the time against 2% hands on the river.
I know variance can be sick, but when people who are 70 years old playing poker for over 50 years saying to me they didnt saw such a beat in a half a century, something has to be going wrong very bad.

Wish you guys all the best

Last edited by therunbad; 12-16-2018 at 07:03 AM.
therunbad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 07:03 AM   #2
monikrazy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
monikrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 25,160
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

I dont love the sizing on flop, prefer a larger bet or xraise.

As played I probably check the turn as well.

Variance in Omaha can feel really sickening at times - taking time off can have many positive effects if your game is showing the fatigue.

Last edited by monikrazy; 12-16-2018 at 07:09 AM.
monikrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 07:31 AM   #3
PokerPlayingGamble
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,848
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

six to the flop I would be concerned about my flush draw not being good and start with a check
PokerPlayingGamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 12:35 PM   #4
BulltexasATM
old hand
 
BulltexasATM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: HTown
Posts: 1,214
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Biggest mistake in the hand is potting this hand UTG
BulltexasATM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 02:58 PM   #5
therunbad
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 47
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BulltexasATM View Post
Biggest mistake in the hand is potting this hand UTG
I dont think so, Im on a recreational table where all the player are sticky loose fishes and i have a hand that easily can call a 3bet and play absolutely fine postflop, multiway aswell.

After discussing this hand with a very good plo player and a friend of mine, he likes to check raise get it in on the flop.

btw I have no limping range UTG, except AAxx

Last edited by therunbad; 12-16-2018 at 03:09 PM.
therunbad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 07:10 PM   #6
monikrazy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
monikrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 25,160
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

You are way overestimating the playability of this hand multiway, and from ep.
monikrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 08:06 PM   #7
Javanewt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: a farm in the country
Posts: 8,597
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
You are way overestimating the playability of this hand multiway, and from ep.
Agree. It is so easily dominated.
Javanewt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 08:48 PM   #8
PokerPlayingGamble
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,848
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

At a very soft table, where you can expect players to call pre with all sorts of weak hands, this hand is profitable UTG seven handed, although it would be better played with an open limp.
PokerPlayingGamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2018, 09:20 PM   #9
Javanewt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: a farm in the country
Posts: 8,597
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Open limp is fine.
Javanewt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2018, 11:24 AM   #10
therunbad
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 47
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

i agree with the guys who think i could open limp UTG with this hand on a regular table with some regs, but as said there was no aggression on this table, people are limping with hands like j379o, K936o, 2278o and it get always limped to the blinds, they havent raised a hand for 2 hours.
so giving this players action, I like to raise this hand UTG

everybody played his hand straight forward showing all cards after someone folded, so i would say i had a massive edge on this table, after the hand i rebuyed 5k to cover everyone but unfortunately???
i managed to get it in with top set against AAxx on a rainbow flop and the guy made a runner runner flush.

but thats just me.
therunbad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2018, 12:57 PM   #11
MIB211
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,992
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Agreed with others, I fold this hand pre-flop from UTG, or maybe limp it. It's a sneaky bad hand. We're connected, but not with all 4 cards, so hard for us to flop really big draws. We're not nutted at all. I'd play this hand in position, but would fold "2 holdem hands" from early position.

Also, I think you can check/call turn rather than bet/call. Head's up double barreling seems fine, but with two callers we're just not getting enough folds on the flop, and when we get called often someone has at least one of the nut flush draws and eats into a ton of our outs.
MIB211 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2018, 07:53 PM   #12
BDHarrison
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,226
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Check/fold on the flop is way better than leading out. I'd be tempted to check 100% of my range on this flop. With so many non-nut outs on both the flop and turn, I would consider being aggressive if I thought I could get the pot heads-up, otherwise I prefer to invest as little as possible in the pot. The ideal way for this hand to run out is to hit the straight draw on the turn, get it in as a freeroll, and bink the river.

I would open-limp preflop at a passive table where there is a strong chance there is no raise preflop. I would fold at an aggressive table where there is a strong chance it is 3bet preflop. Under a lot of table dynamics, I have almost no raising range UTG.

Sometimes, the worst thing you can do against sticky, loose fish is to start thinking you can widen your range and outplay them post-flop because all that does is turn you into another sticky, loose fish.
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2018, 08:12 PM   #13
sl8a
Pooh-Bah
 
sl8a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: USP
Posts: 4,229
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by therunbad View Post
I dont think so, Im on a recreational table where all the player are sticky loose fishes and i have a hand that easily can call a 3bet and play absolutely fine postflop, multiway aswell.

After discussing this hand with a very good plo player and a friend of mine, he likes to check raise get it in on the flop.

btw I have no limping range UTG, except AAxx
And yet here we are.
sl8a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2018, 09:14 PM   #14
smoothcriminal99
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 977
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

I probably play the hand the same except maybe the flop.
smoothcriminal99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2018, 09:33 PM   #15
jjjou812
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,300
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Preflop does not matter to me as it is a cheap street to make a mistake.

OTT, if you were dominated on both flush draws (more likely w your 8 high bd flush draw) you really only had 4 nut flush cards and your 6 straight draws cards. As played, we can add back in the other 5 diamond flush cards as outs (i would not count the hhs as live even though they were). So, you had a 30% hand, potted and reopened action for a repot to bb kkxx with 3 players in hand. I doubt you were getting the right odds to call the repot if the other player was short.

Sounds like you are surprised you lost in a 3 way pot when you are losing 2/3 of the time (i would also expect to chop a rivered str8). If you play small ball on the turn, you get to see the river, not run it twice and have chips left to bet IF you hit your hand.

Last edited by jjjou812; 12-17-2018 at 09:47 PM.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2018, 10:08 PM   #16
BDHarrison
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,226
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Preflop does not matter to me as it is a cheap street to make a mistake.
I think preflop is underrated because small mistakes lead to magnified effects as the pot grows. There can be huge reverse implied odds in this game. It's kind of like how playing too many hands in the small blind seems like a small mistake in a loose LHE game, but can be the difference between being a winner or a loser, between being a small winner and a crusher. A lot of hands seem to play themselves postflop, so being better at preflop is often where a lot of the edge comes from in PLO.

Since OP says he is going on a brutal downswing, I'll say that when I go on a downswing, I've found that what works for me is to tighten up a ton preflop and rebuild my game from a nitty foundation. I cut out all the marginal hands that are slightly +EV at best but might be slightly -EV. I especially tighten up in EP. I'm probably about a 20% VPIP in live full-ring PLO, but I think I still play too many hands at that level and I tighten up even further when I am running bad.
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 01:27 AM   #17
jjjou812
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,300
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Bd, i agree with your premise but you can rectify small preflop erros on the later streets. He became enamored with pretty "all air" on the turn and it cost him two grand, not his preflop pop. My guess is he put in $1000-$1800 on the turn with nothing.

He also believes in 2% hands, dead hands on the flop, etc.- things i dont see often at the plo table.

Last edited by jjjou812; 12-18-2018 at 01:40 AM.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 02:21 AM   #18
therunbad
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 47
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Bd, i agree with your premise but you can rectify small preflop erros on the later streets. He became enamored with pretty "all air" on the turn and it cost him two grand, not his preflop pop. My guess is he put in $1000-$1800 on the turn with nothing.

He also believes in 2% hands, dead hands on the flop, etc.- things i dont see often at the plo table.

i appreciate all the answers and Im thinking trough them.

here we go, just telling you a story which happened exactly 1week ago, i had K993 in the BB and the whole table limps to me, obviously checking my option.

Flop 393

sb leads out, I just call folds to the Hijack who pots the cutoff COLDCALLS, Sb folds, i just repot and get it all in with both of them.

hijack showing KK93, cutoff who was a absolute whale shows AAJ8

i showe my nines full and blocking the quad outs, they ask to run it twice i agree

first board runs out. 3935K
second: 393QA

And im just thinking why me man, why the fk this has to happen to me all the time, guy hits a one outer on me and the biggest fish on the table hits a 2outer, both on the river

its just brutal man so pls, if you dont have any experience with beats like that dont argue about them with me.

Last edited by therunbad; 12-18-2018 at 02:27 AM.
therunbad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 03:21 AM   #19
jjjou812
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,300
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Your examples are 12% and 8% hands with a turn and river to come. Aaj8 could also go perfect perfect for a str8 flush depnding on suits. Do you really think you are the only player to suffer a bad beat in Plo?

How is this hand comparable to putting in a pot and a repot with 100% air, ie., your two draws?

Last edited by jjjou812; 12-18-2018 at 03:28 AM.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 03:39 AM   #20
therunbad
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 47
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Your examples are 12% and 8% hands with a turn and river to come. Aaj8 could also go perfect perfect for a str8 flush depnding on suits. Do you really think you are the only player to suffer a bad beat in Plo?

How is this hand comparable to putting in a pot and a repot with 100% air, ie., your two draws?
the kings hand had 5,75% on the flop
on the turn 2,5 %
and the AA had 9% on the flop
5 % on the turn

so i guess you just clueless man

the bad beats i took from the worst players on the planet, believe me you would give up poker lifetime

you talking about "a bad beat" i have this beats in every session i play since 4 months"

you asked me about, loosing against 2% hands, and i give you a example.
and if 2 open ended straight flush draws are air for you and you never play them agressive i would love to have you at my table!
best of luck!
therunbad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 09:06 AM   #21
BDHarrison
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,226
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Bd, i agree with your premise but you can rectify small preflop erros on the later streets.
I think you can rectify small preflop errors if pots are often heads-up or three-way on the flop because you have more opportunities to outplay your opponents. I think when pots are multi-way, especially five or more seeing the flop, the ability to make up for those mistakes is diminished and your edge comes more from technical proficiency than artistry at the table.
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 10:54 AM   #22
BulltexasATM
old hand
 
BulltexasATM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: HTown
Posts: 1,214
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by therunbad View Post
i appreciate all the answers and Im thinking trough them.

here we go, just telling you a story which happened exactly 1week ago, i had K993 in the BB and the whole table limps to me, obviously checking my option.

Flop 393

sb leads out, I just call folds to the Hijack who pots the cutoff COLDCALLS, Sb folds, i just repot and get it all in with both of them.

hijack showing KK93, cutoff who was a absolute whale shows AAJ8

i showe my nines full and blocking the quad outs, they ask to run it twice i agree

first board runs out. 3935K
second: 393QA

And im just thinking why me man, why the fk this has to happen to me all the time, guy hits a one outer on me and the biggest fish on the table hits a 2outer, both on the river

its just brutal man so pls, if you dont have any experience with beats like that dont argue about them with me.
BBV is down the hall!
BulltexasATM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 08:34 PM   #23
jjjou812
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,300
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by therunbad View Post
the kings hand had 5,75% on the flop
on the turn 2,5 %
and the AA had 9% on the flop
5 % on the turn

so i guess you just clueless man

********

you asked me about, loosing against 2% hands, and i give you a example.
and if 2 open ended straight flush draws are air for you and you never play them agressive i would love to have you at my table!
best of luck!
Believe me, I would love you at my table too! Combined, according to your figures, the hands are 14.75% and 7.5%, so my estimation of 12% and 8% are just clueless man, just clueless. 4x-7x's what you call 2% hands. You have not given a single example of losing with a 2% hand - not that we want to hear about it anyways.

Since you have the program open, why don't you run the hands you lost with your pretty straight flush draws and figure out your odds were around 30%.

All draw is "all-air" in my book. You put all your money in on the turn with nothing but air in a spot where if you had checked, instead of potted it, action would not have likely reopened for the BB to repot it. You were all in, behind a made hand, miss your draw, post it and argue you played it 100% correctly and act like you lost to a 2% hand.

I am not really trying to flame you because you had the best possible all air you can have and whiffing with it is hard, especially when others hit the improbable outs against you. But you sound like one of those guys who shows their hand and exclaims they can't lay down a Royal draw and show your QJ of diamonds and don't comprehend that they were drawing dead on the flush draw when you show them the A9 of diamonds.

Quitting poker after we play your last session is your best option.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 08:48 PM   #24
jjjou812
veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,300
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
I think you can rectify small preflop errors if pots are often heads-up or three-way on the flop because you have more opportunities to outplay your opponents. I think when pots are multi-way, especially five or more seeing the flop, the ability to make up for those mistakes is diminished and your edge comes more from technical proficiency than artistry at the table.
I agree with you again. My translation of this concept in practice is that you must be able to fold more non-nut draws, bottom and middle sets and straights when more players see a flop so that you don't get stuck on later streets. Aggressive betting out of position is also a bad choice with a larger field.

But I still think OP's problem was on the turn with no made hand and queen high.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2018, 09:17 PM   #25
therunbad
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 47
Re: QdJd7h8h, was it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Believe me, I would love you at my table too! Combined, according to your figures, the hands are 14.75% and 7.5%, so my estimation of 12% and 8% are just clueless man, just clueless. 4x-7x's what you call 2% hands. You have not given a single example of losing with a 2% hand - not that we want to hear about it anyways.

Since you have the program open, why don't you run the hands you lost with your pretty straight flush draws and figure out your odds were around 30%.

All draw is "all-air" in my book. You put all your money in on the turn with nothing but air in a spot where if you had checked, instead of potted it, action would not have likely reopened for the BB to repot it. You were all in, behind a made hand, miss your draw, post it and argue you played it 100% correctly and act like you lost to a 2% hand.

I am not really trying to flame you because you had the best possible all air you can have and whiffing with it is hard, especially when others hit the improbable outs against you. But you sound like one of those guys who shows their hand and exclaims they can't lay down a Royal draw and show your QJ of diamonds and don't comprehend that they were drawing dead on the flush draw when you show them the A9 of diamonds.

Quitting poker after we play your last session is your best option.

im not saying i played it 100% right, if i had that opinion i wouldnt open a thread.

dude i would love to play you all night long.

you just dont understand the feeling when u get it all in preflop, flop a boat , aces full! und guy hits perfect runner runner for straight flush for the biggest pot of the night. you just dont know that feeling afterwards, and i wish you really that you never take a beat like that, from people who are giving away free money on the table. after taking yours!
therunbad is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online