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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

View Poll Results: Should PLO and NLHE be treated separately?
Yes, they should be treated as two different games. 414 96.50%
No, they should be treated as the same game for all issues. 15 3.50%
Voters: 429. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2013, 04:40 PM   #176
gwai lo
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
We should ask Stars to remove the ""short"" hu tables, there is absolutly no purpose for them and they just make the lobby bumhunter list twice as long.
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Originally Posted by NhAnd... View Post
THIS x1 000 000
+1
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:42 PM   #177
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
We should ask Stars to remove the ""short"" hu tables, there is absolutly no purpose for them and they just make the lobby bumhunter list twice as long.
Best idea ever.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:02 PM   #178
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

we should ask stars to remove ALL hu tables. that isn't poker tables... its impossible get a game at HU tables. if you sit and open at table, nobody sits. if you sit at tables openned, everyone sit out.

so, no reason to keep HU tables. when i or anyone want play heads up, we go to 6max and ask for HU. it works, we open some tables full ring and we play HU. its standard, me and others have been playing hu doing this last months... those HU tables are shame, never works.

i never thought id ask to close HU tables... i started my poker carrer as HU player. 100% of my action from 2007-2011 was HU. i love this format, but HU tables are ridiculous.

napsus, what do you think about a pool about this HU tables? im almost sure lots of people agree w me , and i dont know if pokerstars is aware about this.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:44 PM   #179
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

there's no doubt that HU is by far the worst thing for the state of the games. I never understood what stars were going for by introducing it
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:28 AM   #180
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by Deldar182 View Post
there's no doubt that HU is by far the worst thing for the state of the games. I never understood what stars were going for by introducing it
In the sence that people bust faster their life rolls, yes.
But have you ever played HU? It's freaking awsome!
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:56 AM   #181
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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In the sence that people bust faster their life rolls, yes.
But have you ever played HU? It's freaking awsome!
it can be awesome , but 90% of the hu population wont play anyway . they all waitin for 1 drunkin pinhead who shows up once in awhile . stars acting like the lawyer for the fish population which feels hunted recently. if they would be honest there wouldnt be hu tables . there always like 200 tables open with only 3 games running , but the 6max population is still the only target of " improvements " .
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:15 AM   #182
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

How about replacing hu tables with some kind of automated-matchmaking hu sng lobby (possibly no blind increase)?
Plo husngs barely run anyway, and this way you d get to keep hu tables in a more action (if not in absolute $ amounts then at least in frequency) friendly format. Plus makes plenty of room for leader board stuff...

I duno, always seemed like husngs had a lot of un-explored potential as its probably the poker format most comparable to a non-gambling competitive game.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:59 AM   #183
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

^ pretty good idea, maybe rush/zoom hu with 10 hands per opponent (if you wanna sit out you gotta do it at the end of a 10 hand match as blinds will be mandatory posted)
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:00 PM   #184
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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THIS x1 000 000
x1 00 001
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:23 PM   #185
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
We should ask Stars to remove the ""short"" hu tables, there is absolutly no purpose for them and they just make the lobby bumhunter list twice as long.

+1
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:28 PM   #186
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Fwiw I think Steve mentioned in a thread in Internet Poker that clearing/fixing the HU lobby is one of their top priorities.

Quote:
There has been a lot of interest in the forums lately about ratholing and various forms of table and seat selection. These are two of the three biggest challenges we are currently facing with ring games, alongside the state of heads-up tables in the main lobby.

Last edited by Roy; 01-24-2013 at 02:30 PM. Reason: added quote
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:13 PM   #187
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
We should ask Stars to remove the ""short"" hu tables, there is absolutly no purpose for them and they just make the lobby bumhunter list twice as long.

Yes there is a purpose for them, but only at plo50. I agree that in other limits they should be removed.
The reason why they are good at plo50 is that there is now smaller HU game than 50. So more people can afford to play HU cash games because of them.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:18 PM   #188
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

A penalty system could work to resolve the HU problem at cash tables.

SO if ou decline to play with say 5 different people in one day, you get a one week penalty away from all the HU cash tables.

What do you guys think of that? It could be impossible to code in the software though..

I guess this is the wrong thread to talk about it? Sorry Napsus
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:25 PM   #189
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

so all the normal speed tables are back?
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:39 PM   #190
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Cardrunners' Zimba (@pokercurious) raising awareness about the Stars PLO rake issue in his blog:

http://www.cardrunners.com/blog/Zimb...-torch-for-plo
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:45 PM   #191
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Just make heads up tables KotH with 5-10 open tables for each stake, zoom heads up would be terrible.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:28 AM   #192
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
2) The average amount of rake taken per hand in PLO is higher than in similar stakes NLHE games because there is more action in PLO.
This way of looking at the rake situation is flawed because a huge majority of the "action" in PLO games is illusory. In a small stakes PLO game for every thousand dollars the goes in the middle, probably ~250-300 is going in in situations where no player has an edge, and another ~300-400 is going in where any edge a player has is very small. If you are trying to look at the sustainability of a particular game WRT rake you MUST compare rake with potential win rates rather than pot size.

If you took a 50nl game and tweaked the RNG so that AK and QQ got dealt WAY more often than usual, the average pot size (and rake in bb/100) would go through the roof and profitable players win rates would go drop dramatically as a result of the increased rake. This would mean a little less action at 100nl, a little less action at 200nl, a little less at 400nl right on up the line.

If you guys want to just squeeze out as much rake per hand as you can right now rather than develop a healthy sustainable eco-system, you should just come out and say so. Don't try to argue the rake levels are comparable just because more money makes its way into the pots. Think about what would happen to your "action" and rake numbers if you gave small stakes PLO players the opportunity to equity chop every time they were all in and only raked the money that actually changed hands. If you go even further and apply a hand vs hand equity framework on ALL streets/situations it's pretty easy to see how low stakes PLO players get royally screwed on rake compared to NL Holdem players.

Last edited by Adebisi; 01-25-2013 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:11 AM   #193
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borys313 View Post
We should ask Stars to remove the ""short"" hu tables, there is absolutly no purpose for them and they just make the lobby bumhunter list twice as long.
There is no purpose for them from a reg's perspective, but from stars perspective they protect the fish a bit(when 50bb fish doubles up you can't rebuy to 100bb to cover them), though not as much as CAP tables do.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:28 PM   #194
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebisi View Post
This way of looking at the rake situation is flawed because a huge majority of the "action" in PLO games is illusory. In a small stakes PLO game for every thousand dollars the goes in the middle, probably ~250-300 is going in in situations where no player has an edge, and another ~300-400 is going in where any edge a player has is very small. If you are trying to look at the sustainability of a particular game WRT rake you MUST compare rake with potential win rates rather than pot size.

If you took a 50nl game and tweaked the RNG so that AK and QQ got dealt WAY more often than usual, the average pot size (and rake in bb/100) would go through the roof and profitable players win rates would go drop dramatically as a result of the increased rake. This would mean a little less action at 100nl, a little less action at 200nl, a little less at 400nl right on up the line.

If you guys want to just squeeze out as much rake per hand as you can right now rather than develop a healthy sustainable eco-system, you should just come out and say so. Don't try to argue the rake levels are comparable just because more money makes its way into the pots. Think about what would happen to your "action" and rake numbers if you gave small stakes PLO players the opportunity to equity chop every time they were all in and only raked the money that actually changed hands. If you go even further and apply a hand vs hand equity framework on ALL streets/situations it's pretty easy to see how low stakes PLO players get royally screwed on rake compared to NL Holdem players.
+1
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:16 PM   #195
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by TianYuan View Post
What kind of argument is "Rake is higher because more action" anyway?
Exactly. I'm amazed this argument is given here. We pay more because we're gambling more? If anything it should be the opposite.

Whenever I've spoken to Stars reps their position has been "poker is a game of skill" (I've sounded them out for possible chess sponsorship in the past, generally have been well received because "it would be good to be associated with a pure game of skill"). I'm sure "skill" is what they tell the authorities in various jurisdictions too. The high rake is close to reducing small stakes PLO to a casino game, if it hasn't already at micro stakes.

I'd also like to know if Stars themselves do regular internal analysis of win rates, rake etc.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:23 PM   #196
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

[QUOTE=Mig;36771974]That's why if you are a SSPLO grinder, you SHOULD NOT play on PS. Everytime someone ask me advice for SSPLO among my friends, I always tell them to go with their higher % rakeback. At stakes lower than PLO 100, room selection >>>> seat selection.

I dont agree, there is a lot of other factors.
U cant wake up at 8am and fire up 6/8 plo tables on euro sites. Its impossible, ur lucky to get 4 going which u prob have to start urself.
The games on stars imo at plo50/100/200 are alot better, I found I was playing half my tables with similar players to myself and half with maybe 1 fish and rest regs.
Software on stars is so much better. Also deep ante tables.

Stars should def see the difference between plo and nlh and change the rake. Lets hope they do becasue its by far the best site.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:50 PM   #197
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Also would like to say well done to Napsus on all the work. Amazing.
Stars if u wanted someone with true knowledge of the plo market to hire, hes ur man.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:05 AM   #198
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by mbpoker View Post
Successful businesses care about their customers, and that helps them to make their money too.
I agree with this 100% and this is the reason why I have created these threads.

Based on the above statement by an account "mbpoker" that allegedly (and very likely) belongs to Pokerstars chief Isai Scheinberg, I wrote Pokerstars support a lengthy email including this chapter:

Quote:
I have all the respect in the world for Pokerstars and I think you have done great things to the poker world. Therefore I am optimistic that Pokerstars plans to save the wonderful game of PLO. Right now players are leaving the game and I am leaving Pokerstars as I cashed out my money a few moments ago. Other sites offer me enough games at the moment (I am currently staying in South East Asia and the timezone is worst possible in the current poker environment where europeans are the most active players) to play at the moment with ~60-70% lower NET rake (gross rake - rakeback/promotions/bonuses/rakeraces), therefore it doesn't make any financial sense for me to stay. As much as running the games is a business for Pokerstars, PLO is a business for me. I estimate that Pokerstars loses approximately ~$80.000 in gross rake revenue because I move my business elsewhere and I lose $15.000-$20.000 if I stay with Pokerstars under the current conditions. (numbers are "ballparks"). I would be delighted to come back to Pokerstars with full power when Pokerstars acknowledges the issue with PLO rake (and other issues) and does something about it. As long as things the way they are now, I will play where it makes the most financial sense to me. At the moment my bottom line is hurt way too much if I play on Pokerstars.
I also directed them to the latest threads and also mentioned that players are ready to hear from Pokerstars. Furthermore I mentioned that the absolutely biggest problem is the rake at micros, which to me personally resemble more casino games than poker at the moment, with few lucky ones emerging as "winners" after rake.

Something has to be done before it's too late.

all the best,
napsus
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:47 AM   #199
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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Originally Posted by napsus View Post
I agree with this 100% and this is the reason why I have created these threads.

Based on the above statement by an account "mbpoker" that allegedly (and very likely) belongs to Pokerstars chief Isai Scheinberg, I wrote Pokerstars support a lengthy email including this chapter:



I also directed them to the latest threads and also mentioned that players are ready to hear from Pokerstars. Furthermore I mentioned that the absolutely biggest problem is the rake at micros, which to me personally resemble more casino games than poker at the moment, with few lucky ones emerging as "winners" after rake.

Something has to be done before it's too late.

all the best,
napsus
I wrote them too and they answered that they forwarded my mail to the Poker Room Management Team, so it sounds like they are at least listening.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:57 AM   #200
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

I know a lot of people say that PS will do nothing as they are a far and away the biggest player in the market and they believe that people have to play on their site...

..whilst I don't know enough about this to comment in great detail, all I would say to those at PS who read these threads that I am old enough to remember when Windows and Microsoft were the only real game in town regarding computers, and Apple was seen a weirdo bit part player for geeks...times change and history (in which I have 2 degrees) tells us this all the time....PS needs to be cogniscent of this..
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