Rake is def an issue in plo. Other stuffs i dont really care.

FYP

Obv and +1 to what blopp said about table selection.

I don't play much PLO but it doesn't take a genius to figure out they have to be treated differently. +1 to this

Fantastic post, agree completely.

+1 to all that has been said, GG again Napsus......

I really hope everyone can retweet napus`s tweet to spread the word about this thread!

https://twitter.com/napsuss/status/291536164031188992

+100 too OP

I don't see how anyone could disagree with what's been said in the OP. hopefully stars listens

I quit playing PLO because the rake is too damn high. I refuse to be a rake machine for Pokerstars any longer. I'm pretty proud NOT to be a supernova after 2006-2012.

10bb/100+ rake per person, gtfo Stars

big +1

I think this change is really important to keep plo going for a long time.
I also think that stars would benefit longterm with this changes!!!

i support this! plo is a beautiful game. please dont make playing it so ugly...

as for the time to act, stop stacking

agree w/ pretty much everything, great post

Yeah, this.

I cant see the poll on my iphone (or vote)

PLO is definativley a different game the amount of 3bets being called is waaaay higher as a standard witch bloats pots and rake. I have given up on low stakes PLO and am disappointed in stars for putting forth such games that are rake traps.

%100 agreed/

+1

signed

Great post napsus, I completly agree with napus. blopp aswell.
Great effort, lets hope stars takes this seriously.

If not could there be an idea, that lets say 1 hour of each day(or whatever) players sit out to demonstrate? Could this be a way to get stars to listen?

+1

Signed.

Yes please

Sitting out is against Pokerstars terms and conditions, so the only result will be them booting players from the tables and limiting the number of tables they can sit on at once etc etc so it might not be very effective. On the other hand their revenues will drop, but since the recretional players will keep on playing, there will always some protestors that will keep on playing anyway and then others will join. That's the way I see it.

One way to raise awareness is to use the avatar that Herrigel has itt and allowed everyone to use as I asked for permission via pm. Possible use that as a Pokerstars avatar too, if they would allow such change to happen.

Any other ideas how to raise awareness and make some noise?

This is a very good point.

As to my understanding it costs more for Pokerstars to attract losing PLO players back to deposit as it does on NLHE, since losing players lose faster in PLO, ie Stars misses the potential rake etc.

I personally was a losing PLO player on Pokerstars for about ~1.5-2yrs and not once did I receive any marketing material or promotion for them to lure me back, even though I played other sites for months in a row without making deposits on Pokerstars.

Neither have seen any big PLO tournaments marketed, any PLO specific Pokerstars team players hyped up on the media (Isildur maybe 50% since challenges were 50/50) and there still are no major PLO tournaments with big guaranteed prize pools on Sundays, which we all know to be the major tournament day. Instead there's the $215 PLO (9-max) tourney which starts Saturday afternoon Europe time, which is terrible, and the Monday $530 PLO (6-max) tourney. Tournaments are a good gateway to the cash games, that's how I made my transition. We absolutely need a big Sunday PLO tournament! I'm positive many players posting itt and reading these forums would be happy to play it.

...so I am wondering where is all this "extra" money raked from PLO cash games compared to raked in NLHE going to? I see nothing done to attract new PLO players. I'm sure Pokerstars representatives on this forum are happy to correct me if I'm wrong. At the moment I feel like the two extra hole cards are the only reason to justify double the rake at the stakes I personally.

To me it seems like the NLHE market has saturated for now since the competition is very tough, as happened with LHE when people started moving to NLHE. PLO is a super exciting game and in my eyes it's a natural next step for many NLHE players, who feel that the competition at the equivalent PLO tables is still fairly soft. PLO is also a much, much harder game to "solve", in lack of a better word, and in my view this guarantees longevity and "fishiness" of the game too since there are for example no preflop hand charts that you can follow religiously, the game is very dynamic.

But not many NLHE players are crossing over, I wonder why? If you read the forums close enough, you'll find countless remarks by possible NLHE transfers that the rake is just too high. I get many PMs encouraging me to keep pushing these issues since small stakes PLO players can't play the games because of the high rake. They go back to NLHE or they grind the small buy-in PLO MTTs. This is not a very healthy sign for a game, that many of the big poker stars see as the most exciting game. The situation is dreadful.

I'm really hoping that Pokerstars realises these issues and does the right thing and starts taking PLO issues seriously. We need it, and Pokerstars needs it. It's very short-sighted serving only customers in a saturated market, I believe PLO is a big part of future poker scene.

I really hope they'll do something this time around...

Your idea is good (i.e. would show stars how important this issue is to us), however, I think it will be very impractical/ shouldn't be done:

1) Quite a lot of regs will just continue playing, since the fish/reg ratio will be a lot better.

2) I'm not sure how recreational players will be feeling about this, lobby will be a huge mess.

3) It might kind of end up in people blocking tables

4) It simply is against PS rules.

--> prob not the best idea... :/


+1

The way it worked in nlhe (from my experience) was what I call the rinse and repeat system:

People started grinding micros --> took shots at the next level in stakes --> mostly lost some on their first shot --> moved back down etc.
and on it went until they established themselves at one level, then they'd do the same thing for the next level.

Many players even started at 2nl. That created a healthy poker ecosystem, with a lot of people losing a little at the lowest stakes with the money moving up higher and higher in stakes. That was only possible, because of the rake structure compared to the competition in nlhe. With today's rake structure it seems impossible for most players to beat micros and taking as much rake out of the system at micros/ssplo as Stars does, doesn't seem to be sustainable/optimal for neither the players nor pokerstars.