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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

View Poll Results: Should PLO and NLHE be treated separately?
Yes, they should be treated as two different games. 414 96.50%
No, they should be treated as the same game for all issues. 15 3.50%
Voters: 429. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:36 AM   #326
alexo18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EC10 View Post
just want to mention that one of the 13 "no" votes is mine and I snap voted upon opening the thread, misinterpreting the question at the time and then realized my mistake. it's probably the case for at least a few of the other 12 as well.
Same here
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:22 PM   #327
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

I think the question has shifted a bit, originally it was should PLO and NLHE be treated the same? Which I take to mean raked the same, given the same buy-in structure, given the same timing for decisions, etc. I think the emphasis now is that the net rake is too high for long term sustainable games in PLO, and is particularly tough on msplo.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:06 AM   #328
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Another one bites the dust.

Makes me sick to my stomach to read these.

Pokerstars, time to meet players halfway?

Goodbye SSPLO :'(

Quote:
Originally Posted by VS_PKR View Post
After playing about 500k hands of PLO25 Zoom I now realize:

The rake is ridiculous ****ing ridiculous at Zoom PLO25. On average, it is 14.5bb/100 (less for nits and OMG more for LAGs).

If you can beat ZOOM NL25 for 6bb/100 (which is considered decent apparently) you would be losing playing PLO assuming the same relative skill level since rake at those games is only 8bb/100.

I started asking myself:

"Am I really that good that I can afford to play there games and hope to move up?"
"Can I sustain a 24bb/100 pre rake winrate without ruinning above EV?"
"Should I be playing these games without Supernova status"
"Are NLHE games that bad?"

I answered no to all these questions.

NLHE is really boring, but my hourly has increased dramatically over a small sample, and I think there are actually alot more fish at these games, and the player pool is much healthier. The zoom PLO player pool goes through massive swings IMO, where there are fish everywhere and you can have 20bi days, then it dries up for weeks.

NLHE feels like work, but I'm finding it more rewarding. And for reasons I won't bore you anymore with, I can't play reg tables with the 50/12 fishbowls ATM and expect to make any decent $$$ due mainly to time, bankroll constraints.

So goodbye SSPLO, hopefully I'll come back when I'm rolled to play stakes where it's not a total rake trap, and you don't have to exist as a pure RB grinder, if those stakes do exist at SSPLO.

BTW, I know PLO is like crack, and you don't quit PLO, PLO quits you etc... but I have tilbreaker set so I can't play it.

Apologies if you found this post a waste of time to read, but it's the only rant post I ever made, and have always tried to contribute to strategy discussion on the forum in a productive way.

I've always found the SSPLO forum the most helpful and friendliest place on 2+2 and has help me develop and survive as a winning player.

GL and GG.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:17 AM   #329
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Here are some numbers from a PLO reg at stars. He started with 22/14 at PLO10 and playing around 30/22 at PLO100:

PLO10 - 83.774 hands - 23 bb/100 rake
PLO25 - 57.290 hands - 17 bb/100 rake
PLO50 - 29.0000 hands - 14 bb/100 rake
PLO100 - 431.924 hands - 10 bb/100 rake
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:54 PM   #330
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

microstakes plo is worse than a casinogame atm, msplo is getting there.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:22 AM   #331
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Was doing some analysis and luckily i looked on the Rake BB/100.

Situation: Raised preflop & called a 3bet:


Look at how insane the rake gets in certain spots. The Rake at 0.05/0.10 is freaking 57 times higher than on 25/50.


Situation: Faced Steal in BB & either called or 3bet:


Note how the BB/100 and Rake BB/100 behave? Basically if this situation occurs it's an autolose unless you're playing HSPLO. The rake is so damn unfair that some situations are simply -EV as a standard because of it. Didn't have enough of a sample for 0.05/0.10 sadly.


I don't think there are more than a handful of players who beat microstakes w/o running insanely hot. Obviously some midstakes or highstakes players might be able to beat it pre rb, but what kind of "learning curve" is that for the beginners who are actually playing there? We have to see it from their point of view, not if some NOSEBLEED guy can win at damn MICROSTAKES... what a joke.
The ecosystem is so terrible in PLO, people can't move up because they are getting obliterated by rake so badly, it's depressing.

Micro & SS PLO Rake:



HSPLO Rake:



Ok so get this, the other day i was playing poker...


...nvm guess i wasn't.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:59 PM   #332
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Sick rake.

Imagine hosting a home game with this kind of rake. Your friends wouldnt tolerate that robbery.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:04 AM   #333
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

played 37694 hands at .02/.05 in january and paid $364 rake
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:09 AM   #334
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

thread seems to be dying slowly, 1 weak responce from stars that made no sense just as expected.
also no reply from pokerfuse on my mail.

well who cares, i like getting raped on a daily basis

gg everyone
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:18 PM   #335
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbt View Post
thread seems to be dying slowly, 1 weak responce from stars that made no sense just as expected.
also no reply from pokerfuse on my mail.

well who cares, i like getting raped on a daily basis

gg everyone
Do you pay 60% less rake because you're short stacking now?
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:25 PM   #336
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

stake me and i will fullstack! :P

rake is about the same for shorties fwiw
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:23 PM   #337
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbt View Post
stake me and i will fullstack! :P

rake is about the same for shorties fwiw
Stars is sponsoring some shortstackers, such as Godlikeroy, so maybe they will sponsor and thus stake you?

Sponsorship will also solve the rake problem for you. 100% rb.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:27 AM   #338
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

PLO rake needs to be reduced. +1
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:43 AM   #339
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by InterpolMiikkaA View Post
Stars is sponsoring some shortstackers, such as Godlikeroy, so maybe they will sponsor and thus stake you?

Sponsorship will also solve the rake problem for you. 100% rb.
So bad they motivated this kind of play, shortstack player is like the worst feeling to have near you, its an annoying all in no thinker player that play his predetermined charts of hands whenever you open slighly too big or loose, I just quit any table whenever I have one of them at my left, I prefer to play flop turn and river poker
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:34 AM   #340
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

I PM'd Pokerstars Baard and Steve in hopes of an open, honest reply in this thread and also to acknowledge the tournament thread. Let's see if we get a spot from them.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:14 PM   #341
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

I'd love to redeposit on stars and play more zoomPLO10/25 but it ain't gonna happen when I check HEM after every session just to see that I broke even but paid five buyins in rake. Ridiculous. Instead I'm stuck on the ****tiest software ever on SvenskaSpel because their rake actually isn't mindbreaking.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:15 AM   #342
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

There is no reply coming from Pokerstars in this thread, they stand by their earlier replies. They are not planning to change rake nor is it under any consideration.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:48 AM   #343
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

I just pray it backfires for them and hopefully very soon.
Justice will be served someday .
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:23 AM   #344
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

I will not play a hand at stars ever again until something is done. If they do not plan any changes, i don't either.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:32 AM   #345
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Given the high rake of PLO @ Stars the game can not be called a +EV skill game, its more of a casino game.

Ty stars.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:06 AM   #346
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackpot13 View Post
Given the high rake of PLO @ Stars the game can not be called a +EV skill game, its more of a casino game.
While we PLO players FEEL like that we could try to PROVE it. Suggested below is

a FORMAL MATHEMATICAL PROCEDURE to determine MAXIMUM REASONABLE RAKE %
for a pot-limit/non-limit poker game, particularly for NLH and PLO.

The results are expected to clearly demonstrate that:

+ for NLH maximum reasonable rake is significantly higher than for PLO, and

+ current typical 4.5% rake for PLO is too close (if not beyond) to the point when poker game is effectively converted into bingo/roulette: a game with certainly negative EV for all players at the table no matter which strategy they use.

General idea

PokerStars representatives like to repeat that poker for them is about sport and competition. Similar argument is frequently used to distinguish between poker and other forms of gambling when legal status of poker is considered (currently in the US for example).

It is true that in a long run skilled poker player will be a winner when playing against mindless gamblers... for as long as the game is not raked. It is obvious however that when rake % exceeds some certain threshold even a perfect player will not be able to win. Let us denote this threshold as maximum reasonable rake. Now we need to get an estimate for this value depending on the game type.

The procedure

To calculate a maximum reasonable rake we need first to determine a strategy for our "mindless gamblers": neither they should donate money nor should they intentionally play for a positive EV. For the simplicity of calculations and clearness of the results let us first assume that our gamblers simply go all-in with every hand. (If someone thinks this model is far from reality he/she should try playing $0.5 zoom PLO on Saturday or Sunday evening.)

So we have from 3 to 5 all-in gamblers at the table and our Hero -- a perfect player able to construct the best counter-strategy for any given set of opponents' strategies. Now we only need to determine maximum rake % that will still allow our Hero to win money.

Obviously maximum reasonable rake thus defined will depend on the number of players a the table, but I would not expect this dependence to be strong for 4-6 players. The result will also depend on the stack size chosen for the calculations, but we may use minimum buy-in as it is set by PokerStars for PLO, 40-50bb. The most important is that maximum reasonable rake thus determined will differ dramatically depending on the game type, namely NLH or PLO.

Calculations

The calculation scheme is rather straightforward, I would suggest using direct enumeration for Hero's hands and Monte-Carlo calculations to find approximate EV of each hand vs. X all-in'ers. I can go into further details if someone is interested.

===

If calculations described above were conducted and we had the results, we then could ask PokerStras the following questions:

+ Are you aware that current 4.5% rake allows 3+ gamblers at the table to voluntarily convert a PLO game into a bingo/roulette (-EV) game?

+ How this fact coexists with your statement that you treat poker as kind of sport and competition?

Personally I think such position would be stronger than reference to ill-defined "rake in bb/100" stat or complains about someone being unable to beat the game (sorry, napsus). However we need first the necessary calculations to be conducted.

Is anyone interested in developing this idea further?

Last edited by archaeopteryx; 02-25-2013 at 07:14 AM. Reason: Minor corrections
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:27 AM   #347
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

nice post. stars don't wanna participate in this discussion nor are they considering any rake changes...so these things need to be brought up by the people who attend the stars meeting which is supposed to take place in april (is this happening btw?).
no need to apologize, the more and better ideas we come up with, the better. i dont care for which argument the rake comes down as long as it comes down.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:13 AM   #348
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Lightbulb Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Quote:
Originally Posted by archaeopteryx View Post
For the simplicity of calculations and clearness of the results let us first assume that our gamblers simply go all-in with every hand. (If someone thinks this model is far from reality he/she should try playing $0.5 zoom PLO on Saturday or Sunday evening.)

So we have from 3 to 5 all-in gamblers at the table
You need to film a session video to prove that because Zoom currently can't be observed. Maybe Zoom 50 is softer that Rush 25 (though it's unlikely as P* and FTP are communicating vessels, and Zoom 50 is prone to harsher nit-infestation because FTP has no analogues of SN/SNE). An average table I saw during ~9K hands of Rush 25 had, besides me, a fullstack fish (not always aggro), a 50 bb gambler, 3 nits and a good reg - on every day of the week (maybe with 1 nit replaced by 1 more fish at weekends). I'm sure a good Zoom strategy involves exploiting nits as well.

The model you proposed is close to the way Daniel 'bachfan' Hutchings - the founder of ProPokerTools - defined playable hands: in the simulations he used to construct the starting hand chart, two players automatically went all-in preflop and four other called with playable hands (~15% of all) and folded bad ones, independently of each other's behaviour.

Let's find what rake still makes 'nits' stacking off with 15% of hands winners (that's of course a dumb sim as irl we and the nits change behaviour basing on the numbers all-ins before us, but that's how bachfan defined good hands and so it's the only way to get a semblance of an answer on my own, without PMing him ).

When two fishes shove and we call, there are 3 reg callers behind us ~3% of the time (0.15*0.15*0.15=0.03375, but I can't account for card removal precisely) and then we have ~17.3% equity (see the sim results in the spoiler). There are exactly 2 more reg callers ~6% of the time (3 ways to choose the folding reg, 3*0.15*0.15*0.85=0.057375) and then we have ~21.5% equity. There is exactly one more reg caller ~33% of the time (3*0.15*0.85*0.85=0.325125) and then we have ~28.3% equity. We're the only callers ~61% of the time and have ~42.3% equity then.

Without rake, we'd invest 1 stack to win ~0.03*0.173*6+0.06*0.215*5+0.33*0.283*4+0.61*0.423 *3~1.24 stacks back 15% of the time. With rake r, we get only (1-r)*1.24 stacks back. Also, we post 0.25 bb/hand and have to give the blinds up 85% of the time (in this model), so we lose 0.2125 stacks per hand due to that, resulting in a net win of ~((1-r)*1.24-1)*0.15-0.21. As you see, such a strategy never wins, we need to defend blinds looser!

This model is of course inaccurate, as PLO is a postflop positional game, so additional edges can be gained - if you can find a game full of whales nowadays. I've faced 4-5 fishes per table only on very few occasions, not every weekend like you wrote

Bottom line: the model is too simplistic to be true, but it doesn't change the fact that Supernova rewards suck

Sim results:
Spoiler:

Last edited by coon74; 02-25-2013 at 11:42 AM. Reason: My math skills are gone :(
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:13 PM   #349
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Thanks for fast response, coon74. You seem to have shown that even 2 gambling "terrorists" are able to ruin a PLO table. However it is not the result I am expecting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
the model is too simplistic to be true
The model is not for calculating player's possible edge in a real game, it is intended 1) to demonstrate the difference between NLH and PLO, and 2) to obtain an upper estimate for reasonable rake %.

I think simplicity and transparency of the model is more important than its relation to reality. Let me remind you that the model once proposed by Sklansky (small blind goes all-in and shows his hand) was not even close to how actual game is played; nonetheless once Karlson did the calculations it resulted in the most useful rating of NLH starting hands.

As of the reality,...

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
Maybe Zoom 50 is softer that Rush 25
Zoom isn't exactly "softer" than Rush but there are way more preflop 3bets; and a lot of people tend to call for 1/3 of their stack with something like 8862(rainbow).

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
I'm sure a good Zoom strategy involves exploiting nits as well.
It might be counter-intuitive but the presence of reasonable players (unwilling to make -EV calls) is the only reason that actual $0.5 PLO (including zoom) is still beatable even with 4.5% rake.

Last edited by archaeopteryx; 02-25-2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: English is not my mothertongue...
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:28 PM   #350
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Re: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

Oops, I did it again (i.e. made a math blunder).

1 BI = 100 bb, so we lose 0.0021 BI/hand in folded blinds

So the inequality is ((1-r)*1.24-1)*0.15-0.0021>0 <=> (1-r)*1.24-1>0.0021/0.15=0.014 <=> 1-r>1.014/1.24 <=> 1-r~0.82 <=> r~18%

That's why the wildest live games are beatable even with 10% rake

PLO edges need more investigation, most likely involving PTR

P.S. PS should grant me SNE for life for this propaganda to make me consider playing there
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