Dear Pokerstars,

I firmly believe time to aknowledge that PLO and NLHE are two completely different games and the ongoing and future topics of discussions for them should be taken separately. Exactly like you already did with the minimum buy-in and I applaud you for that.

However such things as

1) Rake
2) Time to act at the table
3) Ratholing

still remain topics that are discussed together with NLHE and I believe that is not right.

Few points to get the conversation of the disparency between PLO and NLHE started:

1) Rake:

-the games play different and for example "no flop, no drop" policy doesn't really come to effect since fold to 3 or 4 bets are much smaller than on NLHE for example.

-small stakes PLO pays over 2x times the rake as NLHE played at the same software and equivalent stakes (NL100/PLO100 for example, the lower in stakes you go, the wider the gap gets)

---> this calls for a completely different rake structure since the current situation (at low stakes especially) is not sustainable. In fact it's absurd.

....if Pokerstars still thinks PLO should have the same rake structure as NLHE, then we demand for same rake bb/100 as NLHE. Yes, Pokerstars might not look at the rake issue like this, but we players do. We measure winrate, risk (standard deviation) in bb/100, as we do with cost of the game. This is something that Pokerstars needs to seriously consider to keep the games beatable and sustainable.

Petition to Pokerstars to reduce the PLO cash game rake

2) Time to act at the table

-for example PLO pre-flop action is more complex than at NLHE and requires more thought.

...this is especially the case at the deep tables.

-HSPLO opinion on the matter was asked, players gave their opinions and majority (according to my perception) was against faster tables and preferred normal speed tables.

PokerStars Announcement: Changes to ‘Time to Act’ in Ring Games

HSPLO discusses the new time to act rules

3) Ratholing

- The structural edge by shorting in PLO is bigger than at NLHE
- The community voted for 50bb minimum buy-in tables and I still believe that would be there right thing to do.
- The ratholing issues are important to fix as long as it doesn't take away table selection. Without table selection the rake will make even more games unbeatable.

Open Discussion: Ratholing, Table/Seat Selecting, and More!

PLO players, please voice your opinions and discuss.

Many thanks and best regards,
napsus

It would be interesting to see how much money is being won/lost (i.e. the total sum) in NLHE, solely preflop. I haven't played NLHE in years and never anything serious, but I would assume that a lot of money is passed around without seeing flops in NLHE.

Stealing is so rare in PLO that you can't make a substantial part of your winnings preflop. For that reason alone, I think the two games should be analyzed differently and rake should be set to accommodate this circumstance.

Although there was a separate discussion about the min buy in at the PLO tables, the ironic part is that the conclusion was to make it the same as NLHE, despite the majority of the feedback. The same thing happened with the "Time to act" changes, again despite the feedback from the regular players which was asked by a PokerStars rep.

It's two completely separate games, with different betting structures, different number of cards in play and different dynamics. PLO is much, much more different game compared to NLHE than FLH is, but FLH is looked at from another angle from quite some time now and there were positive changes made because of it, number one of which was the different rake structure. We want to see the same attitude towards PLO as well.

Jeah Napsus, you call for a discussion, but there is noting to disagree with in your post :-)

Completely agree with joeri.

I think the rake is the biggest issue (already addressed as number 1 here) and something needs to be done. Like napsus said, the amount of rake in bb/100 in PLO is absurd and very much stalls the development of new, promising players.

+1,gl guys !

+1

Suggestion for poll: you could make it a public poll so PS can see that the people voting here are high volume players and our voice should count if they care about their high volume players

+1

i think it's better to keep the voting anonymous and the high volume grinders can verbally express their views on the matter at hand.

The first 2 streets of PLO are much closer to LIMIT holdem than it is to NLHE.

By the way thanks to napsus for taking the time to do this. Props.

Great work Napsus, nothing to disagree with your post.

I have been very disappointed by the recent decisions made by pokerstars. As a belgian player, I had no other choices but to play on pokerstars.be, but the market is opening to different networks nowadays, and would certainly consider playing there if stars continue to take greedy decisions.

I totally agree that rake is #1. It would be fair to rake PLO the same way as NLHE games in bb/100.

Right now I also think its joke they asked for HSPLO opinons regarding table speed, then basically not listening at all and again ignoring to see that PLO is not NLHE. I esp find it true that HSPLO and deep PLO cant have 8second. Absolutely joke.

PLO and NLHE needs to be seperate discussions. Just like fixed games are. Pot limit 4 cards =! No limit 2 cards.

Napsus deserve tons of credit for his ongoing work, and should be snaphired by stars if he was willing.

No offense but they dont seem to know/care/understand cash PLO deeply enough.

And its a game they have all reason to build, market and threat right. I personally believe its a bether game for fish cause they dont get slaughtered all the time, easier to go on heaters, cant be preflop abused to the same degree and lastly its more exciting then holdem with all kinda draws and made hands all the time.

I would actually be in favor of public voting, and would like to see arguments from anyone seriously voting No.

I agree two first streets of PLO (esp shortbuyinn PLO for the second street) have lots of similarities with FLHE. And see no logical explanation why its lumped together with NLHE whenever it suits Pokerstars.

Lastly Ill add it might be Pokerstars intention to cut down on volume for their SNE's. At least I know 8second will make it superhard for me too archieve it again and its a big blow to my SNE chase plans for 2013. Only way Ill be happy if SNE plans are destroyed by Pokerstars changes, is if the SNE chase was not archeived because Pokerstars made a change to a fair rakesystem (same bb/100 as NLHE).

I might sound harsh, I still love Pokerstars for their software, security, email support, ftp hero, ++, but I still feel they should take PLO players seriously and grow the game with us.

Very clear and tactful post. Excellent job. FWIW I think these changes will actually benefit Stars or at the very least be a wash financially between the pros and cons on THEIR side. This means they could make the entire PLO customer base extremely satisfied at no cost which makes me feel like they are just spiting their customers by not making them.

Edit: Oh and can someone give me the over/under on a PS rep actually discussing rake? I assume they will come in and discuss #2 an #3 and act as if #1 was never even mentioned.

A big +1 to everything that Blopp said above, couldn't have written it better.

Chiming in to say I agree with most everything said here. I too love PokerStars but believe the games need to be treated differently for the reasons mentioned. I also (still) believe that PLO has the potential to be one of the most popular forms of poker for a long time to come.

+1 to napsus and blopp. Would love to have PLO be treated as its own game and have the game grow. It might be able to be done in a way that is win-win for the players and PS.

signed

-Me

PLO is a postflop game without preflop level wars typical of NLHE, so no extra time is needed preflop facing a raise in PLO. Instead, it would be nice to have more time facing a raise postflop in PLO, as that's when accurate range and equity estimates are needed.

And I believe the following is a spit in PLO players' faces:
The client is always right and should feel comfortable and not be forced to adapt to unreasonable rules. Periphrasing Nightwish's 'Bye Bye Beautiful',
'It's not the room that forsakes the players,
But the players that forsake the room.
Some day I'll learn to love these scars,
Still fresh from the red-hot blade of your words.'

Dear Rational Services, could you please articulate that masstabling winners are not wanted at your sites? It's not that bad - many major networks have announced orientation towards recreational players, punishing skins for their lack, and your recent inventions like the 7.0 client and Chrome Star show you're heading in this direction too. Why are you afraid to confess it?

If you're afraid to bore recreationals by larger PLO timings, mind that most players understand that PLO is more complex and will be more patient when an opponent faces a tough decision.

Personally, I support enticement to play fewer concurrent tables, but please do this with a carrot, not a stick, and don't deprive PLO that lays the golden egg: cut thinking times at NLHE tables instead, or award extra VPPs for playing shorthanded at 6-max PLO tables (like FTP shorthanded happy hour), etc.

Also, as long as PLO is (questionably) chosen to be a heavily raked cash cow, it's worthy to market it properly, running PLO-only promotions, showing more PLO episodes of The Big Game, EPT, etc.

Agree with everything Napsus said.

BTW, you may get more exposure by posting this thread/poll in Internet Poker

roughly 7/10 hands will see a flop in plo

wonder what the stat is for nl

Thanks even its Napsus deserving all credit. Please mods remove link to his twitter if its against the rules.

I agree orestto. It can easily be win-win for Pokerstars and players if they grow it more sustainable and as PBJaxx says I think PLO can be a lasting game for years. Pokerstars just have to think about the longrun not only shortterm profit.

I cant disagree more, this is completely untrue for highstakes games at least. Look at ziigmund for 10 hands if you dont believe me.

Its def supercomplex preflop, especially deep and multiway pots.

Totally agree. I do think they get most bored preflop since its least exciting to 'rail from the table', but I belive solution is to punish abusers/slowest %s of the regpool not to punish everyone incl superninjas like Oddsen.

I support this wholeheartedly. I know there have been proposals to Pokerstars of a big sunday PLO mtt. Could easily market this heavily and hope to convert these people into cash players.

Also believe they need a new Isil to spark action. Whatabout some of the oldschool europros like devilfish, the dutch guy or samfarha, #dreaming. Out of the current online guys I guess it have to be a splashy action creating person with good etiquette that play lots of steady volume and games forms around.

Out of Pokerstars pros I would love to see DN (played some pre xmas), Selbst (she made PLO training vids right?) and Mercier (that was hell of a though midstakePLO reg back in the days as treysfull afaik) get incentived to play more highstakes to market online cash PLO better. Also they should like to show us online players that they can give a fight, as DN def did in NLHE 6max.


PS in the Open Discussion: Ratholing, Table/Seat Selecting and More! , where they annoyingly lump NLHE/PLO together they consider removing table selection it seems. I strongly disagree with this, and as some argue it might make SSPLO downright unbeatable since tableselecting is needed to overcome the gross rake. Since Pokerstars started that thread, its probarly not dumb to voice that PLO should not be threathed the same as NLHE (100% of 48 votes agree atm) there as well, along with what you think is the biggest issues for online PLO cash games.

great post. obv agree with everything.

I wanna support this thread too. Especially rake at lower limits is absolutely insane.

Great Thread.
Anyone able to Photoshop an avatar that gets us more attention at 2p2 forums?