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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 10-15-2018, 09:22 PM   #1
oldsilver
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PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

(Also posted to LLSNL, didn't know there was a separate forum here)

UTG1 limps (700) - tight reg, not involved post
MP3 limps (1000) - station, overvalues post, has made several poor calls in spots heads up on river where he simply cannot be good but has to see it. Hero has picked correctly based on body language whether he's drawing or getting stubborn.
CO limps (1500) - fun player, great guy, loves to play hands and is reading play well post, but not involved here.
Hero (2500) flats QhQd5h5d - tight image, PLO isn't my usual game but the 2/5NL cash had a long list. called AK2 flop and potted 3 turn earlier holding 3456, then faded set/flush draws running twice to chip up nicely. not committing post on any hand until we've improved to effective/near nuts, then dropping hammer - except in this hand for reasons below.

This is the first question. I'm new to PLO and unsure of when to raise pre in particular (I'll limp/pot AAxx AKQJ KQJT QJT9 from early position to iso, but otherwise generally limp or call behind and play for effective nuts post). Should I be raising this hand pre? What if it was KK55 double suited and the flush draws had more value?


SB (1000) completes - stacked him earlier for min BI 500 on a board I can't remember. seems solid but has been ul v MP3.
BB (700) completes - not involved post.
UTG (1000) checks option - not involved post.

So, the usual limp fest, PLbingO approach to life. otth...

Flop QJ9 rainbow. Checked around to Hero

Hero has top set, but in a hand with 6 runners, a straight is virtually guaranteed - as is an inevitable check/pot line. I don't take the bait and check behind.

Turn (60) 9 completing rainbow. Angels singing. I'll get stacks in, and the question is how best to achieve that.

Happily SB (solid) leads 45, UTG3 (station) calls. I fear that raising here will fold out the straight draws. The question is whether to raise turn or flat again with a virtually lock on the hand an no flush draws to factor in and wait for river. Interested in opinions, as this is the second key decision point in hand.

Hero flats 45

River (190). SB checks, UTG3 checks. Pity. SB is clearly worried about a straight. UTG likely had J8 or 9x that didn't improve to a boat.

This is now fairly standard. Hero bets 175. SB calls with KJ for flopped nuts. UTG3 folds.

Appreciate opinions from all the PLO cash regs out there.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:33 PM   #2
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

Quote:
This is the first question. I'm new to PLO and unsure of when to raise pre in particular (I'll limp/pot AAxx AKQJ KQJT QJT9 from early position to iso, but otherwise generally limp or call behind and play for effective nuts post). Should I be raising this hand pre?
With the tight reg on a somewhat short stack limping in UTG? No thanks.

KT is the flopped nuts not KJ.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:55 PM   #3
monikrazy
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

Preflop limp is OK. Especially for a newer player. Raising is an option, but its situational and not clear-cut. As played, disciplined cback on the flop is ok.. I would sometimes cbet 1/3 to 1/2 pot anyway. As played, turn call is ok, it's hard to get action from worse when you raise so hoping for villain to put in another bet on river voluntarily is a good plan.
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:47 AM   #4
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
With the tight reg on a somewhat short stack limping in UTG? No thanks.

KT is the flopped nuts not KJ.
Oh, doesn’t affect OP but flop was QT9r not qj9 sry
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:35 AM   #5
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

pre is worth it's own discussion

flop is fine, i don't like betting because KJ is usual in this hand and our outs are often blocked

turn is fine, no need to raise IP

river is interesting too inasmuch as it's worth talking about what hands to bluff with, villain probably made a big mistake calling this size bet with only a straight
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:41 PM   #6
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

three way I think there is a pretty strong case for raising the turn especially without a nine in our hand
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:24 AM   #7
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

You gotta raise the turn. You don't need to pot it.

Lower boats aren't going anywhere, trip 9s aren't going anywhere and a lot of times straights aren't folding.

Raise enough to make it look like you're not milking it but not so high straights will fold. Like 125 seems good to me and like tank and make it look like you're weak
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Old 10-17-2018, 09:13 AM   #8
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
You gotta raise the turn. You don't need to pot it.

Lower boats aren't going anywhere, trip 9s aren't going anywhere and a lot of times straights aren't folding.

Raise enough to make it look like you're not milking it but not so high straights will fold. Like 125 seems good to me and like tank and make it look like you're weak
genius
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Old 10-17-2018, 04:24 PM   #9
MMMed13
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

I would raise turn specifically because you said theres a call station still in the hand. I would still probably still raise turn without him, but if hes a station missing out on a ton of value.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:00 AM   #10
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

IMO, you played the hand well especially with your image.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:05 PM   #11
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

IMO, the river card is significant for bet sizing reasons...
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:03 PM   #12
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

I've found that players who like to iso-raise a lot in NLHE often run into trouble when they try to do the same thing in PLO. I basically never try to isolate and I play an extreme style that involves almost no raising from early position.

Given a sufficiently deep enough stack, top boat only gets it in against quads versus some players. You should understand which opponents will put in significant money with JJxx and which ones will play that hand cautiously and never raise with it.

Your turn thought process is not completely horrible, but trying to keep straight draws in on a paired board is wrong. If you need to keep people in, it is opponents drawing to an inferior boat. You just have to learn to identify which opponents clearly drew out on you if the river is a king or an ace and they appear to want to put stacks in.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:33 PM   #13
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

It doesn't matter if you bet or check the flop & you should do both wiht some frequency. That ratio is up to you. But theory says you should bet more than you check here. Bet more than 1/2 pot.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:17 PM   #14
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
I've found that players who like to iso-raise a lot in NLHE often run into trouble when they try to do the same thing in PLO. I basically never try to isolate and I play an extreme style that involves almost no raising from early position.

Given a sufficiently deep enough stack, top boat only gets it in against quads versus some players. You should understand which opponents will put in significant money with JJxx and which ones will play that hand cautiously and never raise with it.

Your turn thought process is not completely horrible, but trying to keep straight draws in on a paired board is wrong. If you need to keep people in, it is opponents drawing to an inferior boat. You just have to learn to identify which opponents clearly drew out on you if the river is a king or an ace and they appear to want to put stacks in.
The board pairs on the turn and hes not trying to keep straight and boat draws in, hes trying to keep straights and lower boats in

As for not raising preflop, especially deep, you're contradicting yourself by saying that sufficiently deep were only getting it in with ultranuts and also that we shouldnt attempt to lower the SPR starting with preflop. The precise reason you raise preflop is to start to build a pot so you're not only ever getting it in with top boat vs. Quads when you're 300bbs deep and the spr is 30

You kinda wanna arrange it so that on the river you're making opponents decide for their stacks not value betting into 190 with 1300 behind and that requires raising preflop most of the time

Otherwise just play for 100bbs. There's no point in playing this deep if you're gonna play scared

Last edited by Do0rDoNot; 10-25-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:37 PM   #15
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

I see it the other way. If you want to make opponents decide for their effective stacks, just buy in for 100BB. I don't attach any emotional significance to making opponents decide for their stacks. I don't get extra pleasure from playing big pots when I do as well as anyone else in my games by tending to play more medium pots.
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Old 10-25-2018, 05:13 PM   #16
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

It's not emotional. It's about money. If you're sitting on 300bbs what's the point unless you're playing for 600bb+ stacks? You cant do that unless you raise preflop, or of course like you mentioned it goes raise reise rereraise call bet reraise all in or whatever postflop. The latter scenario you are right some opponents are only stacking off with quads. If the spr was lower because you raised pre that wouldn't be as true.

Also when you're deep you have more bet leverage because people are scared of losing 3 buyins. More fold equity means more overall equity. No ones gonna fold when the pot is small

Limping is ok with like weak one way nut hands that play well multiway, otherwise you should be raising and 3betting a lot preflop especially deep
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Old 10-25-2018, 05:18 PM   #17
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

I'm not an action junkie. You don't have to play every hand for stacks. The table with the biggest pots is not necessarily the most profitable. I play a tight style that wins me a lot of pots on the turn where my opponents forfeit 25-40% equity against my range because I get too much respect.
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:26 PM   #18
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

You dont have to play every hand for stacks. You have to be able to threaten that you are though. A preflop raise is basically fundamental to that. Do whatever works for you though obv.
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Old 10-26-2018, 12:49 AM   #19
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Re: PLO 5/5/10 QQ55 double suitd

+1 for raise pre. The worse you play or are the more likely limping is better. Can't imagine actual winning PLO players limping here. Not counting breakeven dbag nits.
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