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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 07-27-2009, 03:13 PM   #1
Praetor
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Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

How should I be playing these hands vs good solid regulars - both are something like 26/21 or so, good players, aggressive and good hand readers. when I check back flops like these, should I be calling once? twice? just fold turn? is checking the flop a mistake because it opens us up to such difficult situations?

My image is tag, 22/17 or so, they should both think I'm decent but might not have that much respect for me, idk.

Timing in the first hand was in rhythm, I checked back flop after thinking, he bet turn and river after thinking.

I checked back flop after thinking in #2 and he insta bet turn and I thought and called, and he insta bet river

My main issue in both is that I'm pretty sure both villains believe [whether its true or not] that I wont have trips or better when I take these flop/turn lines



Party Poker $600.00 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $913.55
MP: $740.65
Hero (CO): $603.00
BTN: $530.10
SB: $946.05
BB: $592.05

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is CO with T 7 A K
1 fold, MP raises to $21, Hero raises to $72, 3 folds, MP calls $51

Flop: ($153.00) K 8 8 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($153.00) 5 (2 players)
MP bets $132.00, Hero calls $132

River: ($417.00) 7 (2 players)
MP bets $414.00


Party Poker $400.00 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $690.70
Hero (BB): $400.00
UTG: $827.55
CO: $133.70
BTN: $435.00

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is BB with A K A 4
3 folds, SB raises to $12, Hero raises to $36, SB calls $24

Flop: ($72.00) 3 Q Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($72.00) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $70.00, Hero calls $70

River: ($212.00) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $210.00,
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:34 PM   #2
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

I'd fold both for sure, looks like you are going to showdown. I don't mind how you played them.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:39 PM   #3
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

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Originally Posted by cts View Post
I'd fold both for sure, looks like you are going to showdown. I don't mind how you played them.
OK, thanks. At some point though given they "know" what I have, I have to consider calling against villains who think I will fold here? If they think I am "good" enough to be folding, then I should be calling, ? MAybe I'm just thinking in too many circles
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:45 PM   #4
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

Yah against an unknown I like your line, because they're generally going to freeze up with worse hands once you call turn b/c like cts says, they can't expect you to call turn and fold river with no real history.

But like you said, once you and villain know each other better, then different lines become more viable
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:47 PM   #5
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

Why don't we c-bet Hand Two?
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:57 PM   #6
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

why is checking back the flop to station the turn and maybe the river better than cbetting with a plan in hand one?

seems like when we check villain gains a lot of info re: our range while we gain very little info. checking also makes it pretty hard to represent much on later streets, as i assume you'd bet kings full or 8x OTF?

but i'm just a plo noob asking questions...
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:57 PM   #7
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

It looks to me like you're giving up the lead too easily.
I would bet the turn on both hands.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:57 PM   #8
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

I would prob call river in hand 2.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:02 PM   #9
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

This thread makes me think I need to start two barreling paired boards against regulars more. Oh and checking trips to aggressive villains as well.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:11 PM   #10
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

In my above post I meant to say:

It looks like you're giving up the lead too easily;
I would bet the FLOP on both hands.

Sorry about that.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:36 PM   #11
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

why
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:17 PM   #12
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

hand 1 i bet flop too

hand 2 is an easy bet on the flop..if u get repotted i meh fold..but DEFinitely bet it.. and if ur calling that turn bet u have to call river no?
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:48 AM   #13
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

I prefer to cbet flops like this. 40-50% of the pot. Turn repeat. River check back. Cheaper than checking flop and then facing two PSB on turn and river.

If you check the flop when you miss, you should also check the flop when you hit. Id rather do the reverse, because it puts more pressure on OOP villain.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:53 AM   #14
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabethebabe View Post
I prefer to cbet flops like this. 40-50% of the pot. Turn repeat. River check back. Cheaper than checking flop and then facing two PSB on turn and river.

If you check the flop when you miss, you should also check the flop when you hit. Id rather do the reverse, because it puts more pressure on OOP villain.
I like that, but folding 100% to any size CR or not?
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:00 AM   #15
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetor View Post

My main issue in both is that I'm pretty sure both villains believe [whether its true or not] that I wont have trips or better when I take these flop/turn lines
I like your line with both hands and you should take the same decision on both rivers for sure (vs unknowns). I'd often level myself into a call when ppl pot the river like that because in both its hard to call without a boat (with the str8 there etc).
I'm pretty sure that if you fold its only possible to maintain some sanity if you make a deliberate effort to take the same line with a boat/trips vs. the same villains. Although you have to flop it first.

Also I'm very conflicted when its comes to deciding whether betting the flop is good or not.
vs weak passives its easy, otherwise no.
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:56 AM   #16
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

meh, I'd snap the river in hand 2
cbet maybe a little over half pot in hand 1
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:31 AM   #17
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

cts is spot on as usual. You'll occasionally fold the best hand, but people are pulling big moves less than you imagine. Just balance your range by checking back trips a decent % of the time and you'll win a lot more when you do win than you lose when you fold.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:12 AM   #18
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

I would cbet both flops, there's no reason to just assume you got out flopped and give up. c/c'ing here puts you in a lot of tough spots so i'd prefer a b/f line.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:14 AM   #19
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

As a default, b/f on these flops is obviously ridiculously standard, but vs. aggressive regs who will lead the turn like 100% of the time when you check behind then I think checking back top pair/overpair type hands on these types of boards to induce action is also a viable option. w/o knowing how often villains will 2 barrel here when you check behind the flop though I prefer a b/f line on flop...
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:28 AM   #20
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

I would bet all my air in hand 1 without thinking on a superdry board like this, but since I also want to check back this hand (and AA) I just realised that Im extremely exploitable to cr on dry paired boards. Have been thinking about it for a while but have really no idea how to balance this.

Betfold all air and betcall hands like this and AAxx seems bad to, but do we really want a checking range here? Check everything seems very weird of course and I dont think anyone with a wide 3bet range plays like that but maybe its not too bad to play another street in position? If we betfold this, do people agree that it makes us very exploitable vs cr on paired boards?

However, its very expensive to bluffraise in a 3bet pot on a superdry board like this and I assume you 3bet alot like everyone here so you will have an 8 or better almost as often as he will. And if its not clear yet, I dont think there is anything wrong with just betfolding this hand and AA and its probably best vs almost all players, Im just saying were exploitable if we do that.

The way you played it i just ship the turn since Im afraid of talking myself into folding the best hand on the river and he can actually call with some hands were ahead of. Calling is def fine too and might very well be better.

Vs i cr in hand 2 I ship it in and call it a cooler if he has a queen, if we betfold this hand we fold everything except trips+ and that cant be good. On this flop he can also semibluff with a couple of hands we dominate hard.
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:12 PM   #21
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

saying that they are "good" players is not a read. i would be cbetting until they give me a reason not to and then try and figure out what their strategy is for these situations. some players will not raise w/ trips, other players don't really bluff raise.

another thing to think about is how you want to play air and the nuts in this spot and then decide whether you need to be playing exploitative or unexploitable based on your opponent and create a strategy around that.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:52 PM   #22
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Re: Paired boards in 3 bet pots when I have Pair + a bit extra - 2/4 3/6

Definately check back the flop in hand 2. Bet/calling kind of sucks and bet/folding is so gross.

In hand 1 I'd balance between cbetting and checking.

I like folding both rivers without history.
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