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Old 05-16-2018, 04:24 PM   #1
Shocked
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Unhappy Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

I was playing PLO the other night at my local casino.

There were around 4 players to the flop, and somebody second to act bet $100. It folded to me, and I went all in for $360, which the dealer announced. It folded to the guy who bet the $100, who then threw in his cards well over the line towards the dealer (though the cards were distinguishable from the muck pile by a few inches). The dealer announced fold, threw me the initial bettor's $100 chip, and was going to ship me the pot. I then slid my cards over the line with a $1 tip as a chip, knowing I won the pot. Then the problem arose.

The initial bettor suddenly acted confused, and said he thought everybody else folded. I announced, and the dealer echoed, that he clearly mucked his cards, so I won the pot. The floor was then called over to assess what to do.

We explained the situation to the floor, and I emphasized again that he clearly mucked his cards after he bet, throwing his cards well past the line towards the dealer after I went all in.

The floor made the decision to give the initial bettor the option of now calling or folding.

The initial bettor decided to call, then rivered a gutter to scoop the pot. I became tilted and left immediately. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this situation, and whether there is a specific gaming rule that declares his actions a fold or call.

Thanks.
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:45 PM   #2
eastcoastgrinder
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

Floor was in the wrong. You should clearly be award the pot is not your fault that original bettor doesn't paid attention and muck his hand. I advised you to find another casino if you can if the floor make this kind of terrible decision what else can they be wrong about in the future.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:32 PM   #3
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

seems like an honest mistake on your opponent's part and the floor was correct to allow him to act as he intended to.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:36 PM   #4
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

Would the whole situation still tilt you if the floor let him act on his hand and it ran out in your favour instead?
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:21 PM   #5
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Would the whole situation still tilt you if the floor let him act on his hand and it ran out in your favour instead?
I would still have a talk with the floor manager in either situation. How the cards ran out is results oriented. My question is about the floor's decision at the moment in time, not how the cards ran out. Obviously getting stacked makes the situation more tilting.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:22 PM   #6
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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seems like an honest mistake on your opponent's part and the floor was correct to allow him to act as he intended to.
I see your point.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:45 PM   #7
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

You get more responses to these sort of threads in the Casino & Cardroom forum, some from current/former poker room staff.

In most places, I think it is a fold to you raise. In most rooms, there may be some wiggle room for the floor to let him take his cards back. I don't see a difference between the cards being slightly over the line and well over the line. The more likely there was a chance for some confusion about the bet, the more reasonable it becomes to let him stay in the hand. I do know some floors who would probably let him play with a warning that next time it will be a muck. As long as that is consistently applied, I can accept that.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:29 AM   #8
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

The rules are there to prevent angle shooting and clarify non-verbal intentions. They're not there to penalize people for not following the action correctly. I'm fine with the floor using some discretion in situations where there appears to be an honest mistake, but its a gray area.

Its always possible he was trying to gauge your reaction to see if he wanted his cards back. If the cards are easily recoverable and the situation looks like a simple mistake I would probably give them the benefit of the doubt AND a warning that they won't get it twice.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:28 PM   #9
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

I've been in this same scenario before and if I genuinely don't believe it's an angle and its a genuine mistake then I'll let it ride, hopefully with a warning to pay attention to the action in the future.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:16 AM   #10
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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The rules are there to prevent angle shooting and clarify non-verbal intentions. They're not there to penalize people for not following the action correctly. I'm fine with the floor using some discretion in situations where there appears to be an honest mistake, but its a gray area.
Agreed. Unless you think there's angling involved, or let's say you gave up substantial tells because he's folded, I think this is a reasonable result. Since you actually had the best hand I don't think you can really think this was a bad result for you.

I do feel like this leaves some room for angling though. If for instance you immediately showed your hand face up (or muck your hand) after he mucks, then he should have no right to call off, which would be weird incentive for you to now always show your hand or muck it so they don't have an option to call. I feel like this is just where floor discretion does best.
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:27 AM   #11
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

I witnessed a similar situation the other day in PLO...

Thereís a bet to 35 call and a raise to 135 last player (4) to act just calls the bet. Dealer corrects and says itís 100 more to call, (4) decides he wants to fold now. Raiser says what the hell and calls floor. Floor determines all 3 actions are available but the 35 stays in (later admits heís wrong) should have been a call or fold. Of course (4) now rips it in for 250 total and raiser shows QJxx for flopped boat.

Iíve let people off the hook so many times in this spot, knowing that itís an honest mistake. I would probably let the guy who put 100 in off the hook too and let him retrieve his cards.

I mean in live poker especially PLO people arenít putting 100 in as a pot bet to fold to a repot. Itís rare. It happens but itís so rare that we have to assume an honest mistake was made.

I guarantee this thread is never started if the board is clean and OP won...
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Old 06-01-2018, 11:21 PM   #12
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

Your story is really unclear I have no idea what happened.

Just call what bet? the 135? I guess he meant to call 35 but didn't realise it's 135, but it was really not clear.
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Old 06-03-2018, 01:01 AM   #13
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

It was a raise to 35 and a reraise to 135... player calls 35 and then proceeds to want to fold once he realizes its 135. Do people Hold the person to keeping the 35 in or not?
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Old 06-03-2018, 03:56 AM   #14
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

depends on the casino/floor. i thinks it's better when they can take it back if it's clearly a mistake, with dealer discretion.
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Old 06-03-2018, 09:37 PM   #15
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by rjr777 View Post
It was a raise to 35 and a reraise to 135... player calls 35 and then proceeds to want to fold once he realizes its 135. Do people Hold the person to keeping the 35 in or not?
No, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the size of the call, the caller is entitled to take back their call and re-evaluate.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:33 AM   #16
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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No, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the size of the call, the caller is entitled to take back their call and re-evaluate.
Well floor ruled money stays in ($35) and he had choice to call rest

I agree w u that most of the time people take their bet back and Iíve never not let them take their money back. But this guy called flood and got money to stay in which actually makes sense as a rule. You canít put money in when facing a raise and have no consequence. Leaves door wide open for angles.

My point of the story was he was given additional option to shove (which he did)
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Old 07-09-2018, 06:57 PM   #17
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Well floor ruled money stays in ($35) and he had choice to call rest

My point of the story was he was given additional option to shove (which he did)
If it was determined that it was an honest mistake he should have the right to exercise all 3 options. He should not be held to only calling or folding, regardless of losing the 35 or not. If they're going to back the action up then he is essentially facing fresh action with new information.

I can see that by forfeiting the 35, or a higher amount in a different situation, can lead a player to make a different decision and stack off the rest if raise is an option.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:18 PM   #18
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

the real issue is the dealer, as soon as the cards are tossed towards the muck his FIRST action is to muck the cards. Then award the pot.
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Old 08-04-2018, 07:20 PM   #19
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by SolarAU View Post
Would the whole situation still tilt you if the floor let him act on his hand and it ran out in your favour instead?
Ya seriously, the guy got to put in an extra 260 to draw to a gutter? Was that his only out? IF so you should be happy about the whole situation.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:11 PM   #20
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Ya seriously, the guy got to put in an extra 260 to draw to a gutter? Was that his only out? IF so you should be happy about the whole situation.
I think it was all in pre flop

If in fact it was an AIPF no one in there right mind is going to fold for an additional $260 when they already put $100 into the pot given the fact that they should be at least 40% equity.
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:07 PM   #21
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Shocked View Post
I would still have a talk with the floor manager in either situation. How the cards ran out is results oriented. My question is about the floor's decision at the moment in time, not how the cards ran out. Obviously getting stacked makes the situation more tilting.
do they let you run it twice there?

if the situation was reversed and you had raised to $100 but did not hear the reraise to $360, what would you have done? keep your cards until pot pushed your way?
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:05 PM   #22
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

You should never assume your opponent has folded until his cards are completely indistinguishable from the muck
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:46 PM   #23
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
You should never assume your opponent has folded until his cards are completely indistinguishable from the muck
^^ amen. And rulings are so random as to whether "mistaken" chips stay in pot. Last night guy throws in a black about a foot over the soft line not seeing raise to 400, dealer just throws it back. I won the pot, less the 100. I've seen dealers play total hardball on $2 mistakes, including on me.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:02 PM   #24
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

100% depends on the poker room and more importantly on who regulates gaming (state, etc...) at said poker room/casino.

Also something to take into consideration is if the line you speak of is a courtesy line or an actual betting line? Many casino's have a line on their table felt layout but it isn't a true betting line. If it is a true betting line, the poker room should have a rule about cards or monies that are placed passed the line and what it means.

In a few Colorado casinos, if cards are retrievable and distinguishable from any mucked cards they can still be live and pulled back for play.

Nonetheless, I recommend knowing your local gaming laws for poker. It'll only be beneficial for you in the long run.
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Old 10-21-2018, 02:51 AM   #25
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Freemoneykev View Post
the real issue is the dealer, as soon as the cards are tossed towards the muck his FIRST action is to muck the cards. Then award the pot.
Thats the point, the dealer had to muck the cards.
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