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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 05-16-2018, 04:24 PM   #1
Shocked
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Unhappy Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

I was playing PLO the other night at my local casino.

There were around 4 players to the flop, and somebody second to act bet $100. It folded to me, and I went all in for $360, which the dealer announced. It folded to the guy who bet the $100, who then threw in his cards well over the line towards the dealer (though the cards were distinguishable from the muck pile by a few inches). The dealer announced fold, threw me the initial bettor's $100 chip, and was going to ship me the pot. I then slid my cards over the line with a $1 tip as a chip, knowing I won the pot. Then the problem arose.

The initial bettor suddenly acted confused, and said he thought everybody else folded. I announced, and the dealer echoed, that he clearly mucked his cards, so I won the pot. The floor was then called over to assess what to do.

We explained the situation to the floor, and I emphasized again that he clearly mucked his cards after he bet, throwing his cards well past the line towards the dealer after I went all in.

The floor made the decision to give the initial bettor the option of now calling or folding.

The initial bettor decided to call, then rivered a gutter to scoop the pot. I became tilted and left immediately. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this situation, and whether there is a specific gaming rule that declares his actions a fold or call.

Thanks.
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:45 PM   #2
eastcoastgrinder
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

Floor was in the wrong. You should clearly be award the pot is not your fault that original bettor doesn't paid attention and muck his hand. I advised you to find another casino if you can if the floor make this kind of terrible decision what else can they be wrong about in the future.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:32 PM   #3
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

seems like an honest mistake on your opponent's part and the floor was correct to allow him to act as he intended to.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:36 PM   #4
SolarAU
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

Would the whole situation still tilt you if the floor let him act on his hand and it ran out in your favour instead?
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:21 PM   #5
Shocked
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by SolarAU View Post
Would the whole situation still tilt you if the floor let him act on his hand and it ran out in your favour instead?
I would still have a talk with the floor manager in either situation. How the cards ran out is results oriented. My question is about the floor's decision at the moment in time, not how the cards ran out. Obviously getting stacked makes the situation more tilting.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:22 PM   #6
Shocked
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
seems like an honest mistake on your opponent's part and the floor was correct to allow him to act as he intended to.
I see your point.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:45 PM   #7
BDHarrison
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

You get more responses to these sort of threads in the Casino & Cardroom forum, some from current/former poker room staff.

In most places, I think it is a fold to you raise. In most rooms, there may be some wiggle room for the floor to let him take his cards back. I don't see a difference between the cards being slightly over the line and well over the line. The more likely there was a chance for some confusion about the bet, the more reasonable it becomes to let him stay in the hand. I do know some floors who would probably let him play with a warning that next time it will be a muck. As long as that is consistently applied, I can accept that.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:29 AM   #8
Pirate1081
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

The rules are there to prevent angle shooting and clarify non-verbal intentions. They're not there to penalize people for not following the action correctly. I'm fine with the floor using some discretion in situations where there appears to be an honest mistake, but its a gray area.

Its always possible he was trying to gauge your reaction to see if he wanted his cards back. If the cards are easily recoverable and the situation looks like a simple mistake I would probably give them the benefit of the doubt AND a warning that they won't get it twice.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:28 PM   #9
SolarAU
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

I've been in this same scenario before and if I genuinely don't believe it's an angle and its a genuine mistake then I'll let it ride, hopefully with a warning to pay attention to the action in the future.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:16 AM   #10
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Re: Outraged by floor's decision - your thoughts?

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The rules are there to prevent angle shooting and clarify non-verbal intentions. They're not there to penalize people for not following the action correctly. I'm fine with the floor using some discretion in situations where there appears to be an honest mistake, but its a gray area.
Agreed. Unless you think there's angling involved, or let's say you gave up substantial tells because he's folded, I think this is a reasonable result. Since you actually had the best hand I don't think you can really think this was a bad result for you.

I do feel like this leaves some room for angling though. If for instance you immediately showed your hand face up (or muck your hand) after he mucks, then he should have no right to call off, which would be weird incentive for you to now always show your hand or muck it so they don't have an option to call. I feel like this is just where floor discretion does best.
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