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Old 01-24-2018, 11:12 AM   #1
BulltexasATM
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Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Playing 5/5 PLO, with most hands being straddled to 10. Have recently been playing more PLO so still learning.

$3,000 effective with villiain. Fairly tight Asian player who plays his hands fast when he has the goods. I'm on Button and villiain is SB. Straddle to 10 and early position player makes it $50. At this place you can open 5x's the blind/straddle. Several callers and I call with JJ108Villian calls in SB and there are 5 in the pot.

Flop is Q94

Early position raiser bets $180, 2 callers when it gets to me and I call (should I have raised?) Main concern is A flush draw was probably out based on action. SB then pots it to around $1,200. Everyone folds back to me. Call, raise or fold?
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:12 PM   #2
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Interesting hand.

I only call flop first time around, and it's probably closer to a fold this deep than a raise. Multi-way your hand is actually a little dangerous. You have no idea if your flush is good, but with 3 other people in the hand at least you're often up against a bigger flush draw. Similarly, while you have a nice wrap, a lot of your straight outs aren't nutted. You have 5 outs to the nuts (non-heart K and non-heart 8), and even if you turn nuts your hand is vulnerable to a lot of bad rivers. The argument for raising flop is that you get hands that steal some of your outs, like KT or KJ, to fold, but I don't think you ever get a raise all the way through and take down the pot this multi way.

Once SB raises and it folds around to you, the situation is very different. You're no longer multi-way, and are getting odds to continue against hands like QQ without a FD. I call flop, call turn unless the board pairs or I bink, in which case I gii on turn.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:40 PM   #3
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

If would say call preflop in multiway pot with jacks is marginal at the best,these are connected and you are on the btn so probably fine.On the flop after 3 players put money it`s closer to fold,specially cause there s still 1 player to act and as said above you have 5nut outs which is not good for multiway pot.After sb raise you re in position so i would advice calling and playing turn,cause don`t expect villain to turn his made hand into bluff often in case heart hits on turn.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:50 PM   #4
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Adding that I realize now that the Kh and 8h are also nut outs for you. That makes me like calling flop even more because we have sick implied odds against a higher flush when we bink the straight flush, and don't have to worry about board-pairing rivers.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:46 PM   #5
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

I like it all so far, now call and bink the turn.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:17 PM   #6
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Call, call on the flop is fine
Incorrectly folding when the board pairs on the turn is a real concern as villain could have something like akjt with the nut flush draw and not qqxx

Pre this hand is playable on the button for 1 raise, but we might lean towards a fold if we think we are liable to face another bet
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:52 AM   #7
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Call, call on the flop is fine
Incorrectly folding when the board pairs on the turn is a real concern as villain could have something like akjt with the nut flush draw and not qqxx

Pre this hand is playable on the button for 1 raise, but we might lean towards a fold if we think we are liable to face another bet
RESULTS - I think I ended up making a mistake as I folded. I was a little lost in the hand as I wasn't sure if he had the nut flush draw with straight draw or a set(with possible flush draw/straight draw).

After folding he showed QQ but didn't show his other two cards. In retrospect I should have called I think and gone with it if I hit flush or straight. Thanks for the good posts/responses.
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Old 01-25-2018, 11:04 AM   #8
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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Originally Posted by BulltexasATM View Post
RESULTS - I think I ended up making a mistake as I folded. I was a little lost in the hand as I wasn't sure if he had the nut flush draw with straight draw or a set(with possible flush draw/straight draw).

After folding he showed QQ but didn't show his other two cards. In retrospect I should have called I think and gone with it if I hit flush or straight. Thanks for the good posts/responses.
I think with the action, a live player that you've described as fairly tight and plays made hands fast almost always has QQ in this spot. The main concern is does he also have a flush draw.
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:03 PM   #9
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Yeah call the first time around is good. Your FD likely isn't live this MW besides the SF cards.

I'd call again. I can't imagine he folds anything to your line so really, you'd just get it in bad a lot when you do jam. Then turn is a math problem (FWIW sometimes he will have like AhJTXh and you'll actually be ahead on a turn blank).

Basically if he's made, your draws are almost always live. If he's drawing, you're almost certainly ahead. So I'd call and given pot size, probably call off turn.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:30 AM   #10
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Yeah call the first time around is good. Your FD likely isn't live this MW besides the SF cards.

I'd call again. I can't imagine he folds anything to your line so really, you'd just get it in bad a lot when you do jam. Then turn is a math problem (FWIW sometimes he will have like AhJTXh and you'll actually be ahead on a turn blank).

Basically if he's made, your draws are almost always live. If he's drawing, you're almost certainly ahead. So I'd call and given pot size, probably call off turn.
+1
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:35 PM   #11
nobodynobodybutyou
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

This can just never be a fold once it goes HU.
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Old 01-29-2018, 06:54 PM   #12
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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Originally Posted by BulltexasATM View Post
RESULTS - I think I ended up making a mistake as I folded. I was a little lost in the hand as I wasn't sure if he had the nut flush draw with straight draw or a set(with possible flush draw/straight draw).

After folding he showed QQ but didn't show his other two cards. In retrospect I should have called I think and gone with it if I hit flush or straight. Thanks for the good posts/responses.
can't fold that hand when you also consider that the A high flush draw is most likely not folding either.

also, you can't fold on a brick turn that does not pair the board because you are priced in.
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Old 01-30-2018, 01:43 AM   #13
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Just an FYI, you are an equity favorite (51%) over top set and do even better because you can fold the turn if the board pairs. Can't be too concerned about incorrectly folding on turn to a hand like Ah Jd Td Xh as I believe that is way less likely combo wise and also the strongest of those types may have repotted preflop.

Though if you switch the flop to Qd 9h 4h your equity goes down to 44%. I presume that's because you lose straight flush possibility and also the Qh can be in his hand and he might have a higher flush draw.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:52 PM   #14
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

bomb the flop get it in you're never in bad shape
anyone calling this hand marginal pre is insane on the button
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Old 01-30-2018, 07:19 PM   #15
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
bomb the flop get it in you're never in bad shape
anyone calling this hand marginal pre is insane on the button
why get it on the flop? Wait to see if the turn gives you a 6% equity hand

But I agree that this is clear call preflop

Last edited by ScotchOnDaRocks; 01-30-2018 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 01-30-2018, 07:24 PM   #16
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Yeah call the first time around is good. Your FD likely isn't live this MW besides the SF cards.

I'd call again. I can't imagine he folds anything to your line so really, you'd just get it in bad a lot when you do jam. Then turn is a math problem (FWIW sometimes he will have like AhJTXh and you'll actually be ahead on a turn blank).

Basically if he's made, your draws are almost always live. If he's drawing, you're almost certainly ahead. So I'd call and given pot size, probably call off turn.
Did I code this in right? I have no concerns about folding the turn.
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
101,960 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Q 9 4 4
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
Jd Jh Th 8c5.93% 5,918252
QQ, Ah J T *h94.07% 95,790252
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Old 01-30-2018, 11:23 PM   #17
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Yep, I definitely should have called. Live and learn
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:55 PM   #18
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

You folded???
Lololol I don't know wether to say "poker is dead" or "poker had new life"
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:49 PM   #19
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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You folded???
Lololol I don't know wether to say "poker is dead" or "poker had new life"
Since your’e in Austin and such an expert come on over to Houston and let’s play. Pm me if you ever get over here as I will be glad to sit in a PLO game with you. Games going every day at Post Oak and Prime.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:20 AM   #20
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Any game that you are allowed to play in...is prob not a game I want to travel to play in ��
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:12 PM   #21
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
why get it on the flop? Wait to see if the turn gives you a 6% equity hand

But I agree that this is clear call preflop
i would have raised the first time it got to me and should have clarified that.
if i'm willing to go all the way with a hand which in this case i am, then unless i'm trapping a monster, i want fold equity as well.

you can fold out hands with better flush draws (especially just the king high draw) at these stack depths which really increases your equity in the hand by doing this.you can also force out top 2/bottom set type hands that still have decent equity against you. occasionally you run into top set/nut flush combo hands which blows but overall i think fold equity when they don't have that specific hand outweighs the occasional time when you're just up against it.even if your opponent specifically has top set and the nut flush draw you still have 37% equity which while not good isn't a total disaster.the absolute disaster is higher flush draw, same (or better) straight draw and overpair/set. but having 2 jacks in your hands mitigates that somewhat.


if you played this hand like the op then i guess calling the raise to 1200 and fold to board pairing turns is ok. obviously if you call the raise to 1200 and the turn is a brick you have to call the rest off as well.

against his opponents specific hand, raising before it got to him wouldn't have mattered one bit, but against their overall ranges you could put them in some really tough spots by raising first.

Last edited by borg23; 02-06-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:38 PM   #22
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
i would have raised the first time it got to me and should have clarified that.
if i'm willing to go all the way with a hand which in this case i am, then unless i'm trapping a monster, i want fold equity as well.

you can fold out hands with better flush draws (especially just the king high draw) at these stack depths which really increases your equity in the hand by doing this.you can also force out top 2/bottom set type hands that still have decent equity against you. occasionally you run into top set/nut flush combo hands which blows but overall i think fold equity when they don't have that specific hand outweighs the occasional time when you're just up against it.even if your opponent specifically has top set and the nut flush draw you still have 37% equity which while not good isn't a total disaster.the absolute disaster is higher flush draw, same (or better) straight draw and overpair/set. but having 2 jacks in your hands mitigates that somewhat.


if you played this hand like the op then i guess calling the raise to 1200 and fold to board pairing turns is ok. obviously if you call the raise to 1200 and the turn is a brick you have to call the rest off as well.

against his opponents specific hand, raising before it got to him wouldn't have mattered one bit, but against their overall ranges you could put them in some really tough spots by raising first.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Yes if the turn is a brick I'm still calling of course.
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Old 04-19-2018, 04:10 AM   #23
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Villain is in SB and "Fairly tight Asian player who plays his hands fast when he has the goods"

It's very difficult to find a massive combo draw good enough for him to be slamming and jamming here with what you block. And something like nut flushdraw would likely just call given the very attractive price and the possibility of coolering someone drawing worse.

So it seems far more likely he is trying to price out the EP raiser's possible nut flush draw (and may in fact have done so) which means he most likely a set, probably top set given that he has no fear against the field.

Which is of course perfect for your hand as there is an excellent chance all your flush and straight outs are good and you don't have to share the pot with anyone when they hold. So now you have one job -- don't fold.

If you are at all concerned about ever being outplayed at the turn, I would just jam the flop. And in the rare case when he *does* have something with a nut flushdraw or perhaps middle set, your hand could be ahead and/or have even more outs (JJ) than you thought, so guessing wrong at the turn can be an EV disaster.

Last edited by chalupa; 04-19-2018 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:00 PM   #24
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

likely fold to $180... out of 7 nut outs.. good chance at least 3 are duplicated.. by for example TJKx

call $1200... villain clearly has a set.

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Old 07-11-2018, 08:06 PM   #25
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Re: Opened ended straight flush draw, what to do?

Definitely a tricky hand to play if it calls through and you see turns multi way because of the high likelihood your straight and flush outs are dominated, heads up against this type of player it's a pure math spot if you can get it HU.
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