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Old 11-30-2018, 10:06 PM   #201
Grethe
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Just a few quick inputs:
- Sample size matters a lot on some specific stats - especially WWSF/WaSD etc.
- Postflop stats are way more usefull than preflop stats
- Measure the euclidean distance between the stats and visualise it. Remember to build a controlgroup of known regs with similar styles.
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:25 PM   #202
organdonor4cash
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

i dont understand how their wwsf can be so high? even if they collude and they have you 2 v 1 on the flop, one has to lose the hand.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:19 PM   #203
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

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Originally Posted by organdonor4cash View Post
i dont understand how their wwsf can be so high? even if they collude and they have you 2 v 1 on the flop, one has to lose the hand.
Knowing 4 of the folded cards preflop can make a significant difference
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Old 12-01-2018, 05:50 PM   #204
organdonor4cash
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

ah, of course. thank you, and also in general for the work you're doing! good job!
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Old 12-01-2018, 07:16 PM   #205
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

yes thanks to everyone involved in this effort, the ones on pokerstars, etc

the online community cn no longer fully rely on the security teams of the sites, so this kind of community vigilantism is our best hope to keep the ecosystem safe(safer)
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:41 AM   #206
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

I'm surprised Ace_Ventura13 (no longer playing), sculpin92, snappers, bozo21, victorie weren't mentioned. Most of these accounts were grinding a ton of volume and have randomly disappeared.

Extravert and BR_CHAMP don't strike me as bots.

edit: could easily be wrong about all these suggestions.

Last edited by gwai lo; 12-06-2018 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 01-08-2019, 07:35 AM   #207
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Yes Extravert and BR_Champ are not bots as I already mentioned upon further statistical anaysis. Another interesting bot frequency is that flop cbet (multiway) is always much higher than flop cbet (hu). No human regulars obviously have this tendency. And the multiway flop cbet is always over 70%! There is a few new bot accounts on ACR (Jiraffe, PennyHill, ect.) I pretty much gave up as I am very busy with work (poker) and ACR has not banned any of these accounts to my knowledge.
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:09 PM   #208
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

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Originally Posted by HandOfGod666 View Post
There are basically no players that I encountered at 1/2 or lower than I felt had any talent or were even winning players.
i take offense to this
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:40 PM   #209
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

also, every single "bot" you listed is losing over my sample(past 2 years) at a decent rate
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:33 PM   #210
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

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Originally Posted by Dbull123 View Post
also, every single "bot" you listed is losing over my sample(past 2 years) at a decent rate
A simple check of statname shows this not to be the case. Also even if a bot is slightly losing in the games, the massive amount of rakeback and beast prizes make it incredibly profitable.
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Old 01-27-2019, 07:44 AM   #211
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Here is a "custom global player scatter graph" with Flop float (bet vs missed flop cbet) on the X axis and Cbet flop multiway. This is a database of over 1 million hands with players with at least 2k hands. Every single player in the red box is a suspected bot. (Some are slightly outside the box as well, but this is an easy way to see which accounts are bots).

https://imgur.com/a/cAOJQR3

Last edited by HandOfGod666; 01-27-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 01-27-2019, 07:49 AM   #212
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

There is a bunch of "retired" bot accounts that I found in the database this way such as NoDose, needurnrj, yoyokote, daggerGT, superfisher, maniac115, and I_hold_it (which was one of the few accounts banned in 2016)
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Old 01-27-2019, 08:22 AM   #213
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Flop cbet (multiway) vs Flop cbet (hu)

https://imgur.com/a/czSINiB
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Old 01-28-2019, 11:57 AM   #214
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

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Originally Posted by Dbull123 View Post
also, every single "bot" you listed is losing over my sample(past 2 years) at a decent rate
From what I was told, some bots are designed to actually not win in the games but rather share hole cards or push regs out of the multiway pots and let the other bots win.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:08 AM   #215
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Shouldn't NL hold'em be easier to beat with a bot since the optimal strategy is better known? Most tables are so tight now you could program an optimal raise percentage, and for those that continuation bet often, have the bot checkraise those players a lot.

What should online players do to avoid this? Is Bovada better, with its random table assignment? Are the zoom/zone type games better? I guess if the site is simply infested with robots it may not matter, but I would think overall you'd improve your odds not to be facing multiple robots with random assignments.
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Old 01-29-2019, 05:44 AM   #216
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

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Originally Posted by insyder19 View Post
From what I was told, some bots are designed to actually not win in the games but rather share hole cards or push regs out of the multiway pots and let the other bots win.
The bots will lose only if there is a few criteria are met... 1) Only one in the game. 2) There are enough players in the game that can recognize and exploit the bots.

The bots are designed to exploit the unprotected weak checking ranges in certain lines. By overtrapping, a sizable edge can be gained on the bot. When the bot is last to act on the flop, they will bet 75-80% of the time. This is a huge leak obvious especially because they have a tendency to not bet/fold their merged stabs at a high SPR.

Also, whoever told you that is mistaken. All of the bots are making money after rakeback is taken into account. Also, all of their postflop statistics are the same. Every single account is hitting at least the minimum beast prize every week and many get the $250 prize (they used to get the top prize, but people got mad so WPN banned one of the accounts to make people happy (I_hold_it)). WPN will never ban these bots because their current business model depends on it. I have already submitted a huge amount of data to wpn security and spoke at length with a staff member who insulted me and said he would do nothing. I think the best way to deal with the bots seeing that WPN will NOT ban them, is to teach people how to spot and exploit them.

Something I did not mention before is that all of the bots will always buy in for the maximum at any table. They will never buy in for minimum and they always rebuy immediately to the maximum buyin if they lose money on a hand that takes them below maximum. Also if the game breaks they will always be one of the last 2 players left if there is one bot at the table. This is very easy to spot as actual human regulars immediately sit out when a game breaks. These are NOT reg tendencies on WPN! Certain bots open sit and game start as well.

Last edited by HandOfGod666; 01-29-2019 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 01-29-2019, 05:56 AM   #217
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

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Originally Posted by DaveduFresne View Post
Shouldn't NL hold'em be easier to beat with a bot since the optimal strategy is better known? Most tables are so tight now you could program an optimal raise percentage, and for those that continuation bet often, have the bot checkraise those players a lot.

What should online players do to avoid this? Is Bovada better, with its random table assignment? Are the zoom/zone type games better? I guess if the site is simply infested with robots it may not matter, but I would think overall you'd improve your odds not to be facing multiple robots with random assignments.
I think it is likely that there is botting at NL, but I have no evidence for it so I am sticking to accusations that I have hard proof of in this thread.
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Old 02-02-2019, 12:45 PM   #218
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

I could see an argument that botting in PLO is more effective because blockers are more relevant and each bot can see 4 cards that they can share with their fellow bots/real players also in the hand.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:43 PM   #219
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwai lo View Post
I'm surprised Ace_Ventura13 (no longer playing), sculpin92, snappers, bozo21, victorie weren't mentioned. Most of these accounts were grinding a ton of volume and have randomly disappeared.

Extravert and BR_CHAMP don't strike me as bots.

edit: could easily be wrong about all these suggestions.
I believe Ace and Sculpin were the same BOT. Ace was banned (I assume) and Sculpin was created right after. I believe Sculpin is now banned as well.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:44 PM   #220
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by HandOfGod666 View Post
Yes Extravert and BR_Champ are not bots as I already mentioned upon further statistical anaysis. Another interesting bot frequency is that flop cbet (multiway) is always much higher than flop cbet (hu). No human regulars obviously have this tendency. And the multiway flop cbet is always over 70%! There is a few new bot accounts on ACR (Jiraffe, PennyHill, ect.) I pretty much gave up as I am very busy with work (poker) and ACR has not banned any of these accounts to my knowledge.
I believe those 2 as well.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:25 AM   #221
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

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Originally Posted by WiCane View Post
I believe Ace and Sculpin were the same BOT. Ace was banned (I assume) and Sculpin was created right after. I believe Sculpin is now banned as well.

Ace ventura and sculpin were not bots. I will be releasing the spreadsheet of neatly organized stats soon. What evidence do you have that they are bots or were bots? Just a mere opinion that someone is a bot means nothing. I have data that shows 70+ players over half that are actively playing, have identical frequencies on over 20 statistics that differ vastly from the frequencies of winning regulars at these stakes on WPN or any other network. The stats also are the same as the pokerstars bots that there is a gigantic thread about on 2p2 that were banned years ago....

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiCane View Post
I believe those 2 as well.
It's not about belief or opinions here. Go on statname.net, register a free account, look up these two accounts, and compare them with gloomypapa, slackbreaker, maniac115, DaggerGT, , kaktuz, besimily, NYMph49, illcallback, zoltanPK, needurnrj, k4m4z to name a few. You might notice that none of these accounts are active anymore. Why? Well they certainly were not banned. The bot operator(s) cycle through accounts routinely, old names are periodically retired for new. The stats are all the same. Look in particular at AFq on flop turn and river, WWSF, WTSD, WonSD, Cbet (flop, turn, river) and overall check raise frequencies on every street. The are a few other telling stats that are not listed on stat name that I am compiling as well. THe two most obvious of these are flop float bet and multiway flop cbet. I am so good at spotting this bot now, that I can spot it in under 50 hands. Preflop timing is very easy to recognize after a while as well as which tables it will sit at and the tendency to not leave when tables break/always buy in for max, sizings ect. But the most direct evidence is the statistical and that is what I will be focusing my energy on.
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:40 AM   #222
HandOfGod666
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Here is a tiny sample of some active and some "retired" bots. I even saw a retired bot come out of retirement this week lol and get assigned to Pot Limit duty after his valiant efforts at No Limit (Gladiothor1).

About the spreadsheet:

I used my personal database for the stats that were not available from statname. Some of the bots I had relatively low samples on (as low as 2k hands) this accounts for the variance for the non stat name/ infrequent stats like probe and fold probe. For check raise frequencies I used the statname stat "XR & R"

This is by no means an exhaustive list of active bots. I have a list of over 65 active and retired bots. They have been way more aggressive loading up the tables recently, putting 2-4 bots on tables up to PLO2k.

I have already sent all of this information to WPN security a week ago and of course not even a reply email was recieved. Something must be done.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...h4E/edit#gid=0
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:17 AM   #223
+rep_lol
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

"something must be done"

yea, no doubt. stop playing there.

for real tho good on you for doing all this work
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:27 AM   #224
HandOfGod666
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by +rep_lol View Post
"something must be done"

yea, no doubt. stop playing there.

for real tho good on you for doing all this work
Ty bro

A couple mid/high stakes bot names:

PortgasAceAce
Ropedancer
TeslaM77
BurningManKK
wolf_DDDDOG
temerarious5
Kigdin
glowworm
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:07 PM   #225
WateryBoil
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Re: The old pokerstars PLO botring, this time on WPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by HandOfGod666 View Post
Here is a "custom global player scatter graph" with Flop float (bet vs missed flop cbet) on the X axis and Cbet flop multiway. This is a database of over 1 million hands with players with at least 2k hands. Every single player in the red box is a suspected bot. (Some are slightly outside the box as well, but this is an easy way to see which accounts are bots).

https://imgur.com/a/cAOJQR3
lmao how does the site not catch this. embarrassing. cant say ive ever or will ever play at WPN.
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