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Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5

05-17-2019 , 10:47 AM
Looking for some feedback here.

Playing against two competent players. V2 in this hand is notoriously a massive gambler, far more "gambly" when down. He is up tonight and as such has been playing on the tighter side. The hands he has shown down when showing aggression have been all the nutters sometimes with monster redraws. V1 can play sneaky and loves to slow play, not as concerned with him but we need to make sure we don't over expose ourselves.

V1 ($2300) - UTG
V2 ($2800) - UTG +1
Hero ($3000) - CO

Hero dealt KQ55

Utg straddles to $10, UTG + 2 re-straddles to $20, Mid calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 completes. ($90)

Flop J53

Checked to V2 who pots, folded to Hero, Hero re-pots to $360, V1 calls, V2 takes 15 seconds then re-pots to $1620. Hero goes into the tank.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-17-2019 , 11:03 AM
I fold this pre, dunno if it's right or not but this deep I'm not thrilled about this hand. That said, I also fold the flop. You're both super deep here, and based on your description hard to imagine at least one villian not having JJ. No flush draw, no mega wrap potential... what is he willing to play for stacks with in this high of an spr spot that isn't top set? Nevermind the hitchhiker...he could be sleeping on top set as well.

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Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-17-2019 , 01:35 PM
Preflop is meh but whatever, but the reason it's meh is the exact situation you face on the flop -- you've flopped middle set and have no clue where you're at fairly deep. If you're buried, you're drawing to one out plus backdoors; if you're winning, unless it's to someone going berserk with bottom set, they're going to have plenty of equity somehow (A42/764 the likeliest candidates).

I think on the flop you should probably just call the first time. Your raise shouldn't get "good" action and you can wait for a card to fall off to see how valuable your backdoors will turn out to be. If it peels off a ten of one of your suits, sure, bombs away -- partly because V can more likely have a holding like JTxx with a flush draw on that board as well, so you've opened up the range of things that would actually play a big pot with you (and also made it so your OESD+2/3FD mean you have legitimate equity against top set).

On a board where you don't peel additional equity on the turn, I'd continue wanting to play a small pot. I'd probably call all the way down as long as I could beat 64 on the end, maybe folding river for the $810 if V goes pot/pot/pot.

The other thing about smashing the pot button the first option you had is that V1 is still to act -- usually shouldn't be too big an issue, but there's one other person who could have top set or the wrap still to play is my point.

Anyways, V2 has to have something when he pots it the first time, and your hand isn't actually that great against "has to have something." Don't bloat this pot when you're so deep and your hand is mediocre.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-18-2019 , 04:57 AM
fold pre, this hand is very second best. as played u might as well fold now.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-18-2019 , 01:46 PM
Yep ... gotten my nose bonked on more than one occasion playing this type of hand 'big'. I don't mind PF since you can get into some decent spots, but I think you need to be HU to feel comfortable doing so past the Flop. That may be what you were trying to do on the Flop with the pot bet, but now it gets overly complicated with all this action.

I'd much rather flat the Flop and keep things smaller. Even though this is 'middle' set it's still a small one. I'd rather risk another Player hitting a larger set than being forced to fold here. Waiting to see if you pick up either bd flush would've been nice at a cheaper price. GL

PS ... Maybe a seat change so that a chronic slow playing Player isn't on my left?
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-19-2019 , 12:08 AM
Standard fold pre and call flop and getting it in as played vs described massive gambler.. we have redraws when vs jj
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-21-2019 , 12:01 PM
i play the hand like you and fold to the reraise.... think he just flats with his draws with this stack size and like always has JJ when he reraises like this.... I think flatting flop makes this hand harder to play then raising honestly unless villian shoves wraps/2p+OESD type hands here which I don't think he would given description despite being a gambler.

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 05-21-2019 at 12:11 PM.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-30-2019 , 10:56 PM
In live games with some action to them you must play these types of hands preflop in position. I see a lot of players advocating for folding pre. This is a big loss in equity. (working on the assumption that your post flop play is solid)
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
05-31-2019 , 11:28 AM
I play this hand in position, too. If people start potting pre, I'll fold.

I fold to the re-raise on the flop. V2 has tightened up and been nutty and V1 might be slow-playing? Let it go.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
06-02-2019 , 10:57 PM
Interesting hand.

I think pre is fine if game suggests you’ll see a flop without a raise a lot.

Flop is a tough spot. Seems like you know your V well. Would he ever make this raise with bottom set? Most people wouldn’t esp on a dry board but if this guy would then I think you have to gii.

If V can’t have bottom set here then he has JJ, wraps, and maybe some 2p+ OESD. If he’d raise pre with a lot of JJ (most don’t) then again gii. Otherwise, we’re crushed by his value range and just slightly ahead of his semibluff range and I think this is a fold. Moreover we can’t really flat so committing so really calling 2800 here.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
06-03-2019 , 01:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyGreensPizza
In live games with some action to them you must play these types of hands preflop in position. I see a lot of players advocating for folding pre. This is a big loss in equity. (working on the assumption that your post flop play is solid)
I fold this hand pre because I have a tight image and no one is stacking off with bottom set against me. It's a small pot hand and I only play it at tables and conditions where I have a decent shot at winning a small pot. I dislike it in a game with a straddle and restraddle if those players raise a lot in limped pots.

In this hand, V2 is gambly but competent, so he is probably going to consider what hands hero might have here. If V2 thinks hero always has a set, middle set doesn't look so great. If he thinks hero can have a hand like 6543 or AJ64, then middle set isn't so bad.

This is a hand where I might consider calling the flop bet and folding the turn if I don't pick up outs against top set if I don't like the way he fires a second bullet. I have flat out folded in similar flop spots when a nit has led out into a field.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote
06-07-2019 , 09:23 AM
Some hands play better vs 1 opponent, like J-high ds rundowns.

Some hands like high pairs with a single suited ace like to play vs many opponents.

Some hands play best vs no opponents.

I'd open this hand from the cutoff and would call a LP raise from the BB, fold it in all other spots.

As played you should never raise this flop without a J in your hand.

Last edited by Czech Rays; 06-07-2019 at 09:36 AM.
Middle Set with some back door Re-Raws 5-5 Quote

      
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