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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 03-26-2019, 09:33 AM   #1
BulltexasATM
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Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Game is playing crazy with 2 players driving the action.

Villain 1 is a famous person (not going to out) who sees every flop and is putting his money in with any draw. In the game at least $6K since I got in the game an hour and a half ago. Recently won a decent pot so has about $2K when the hand starts. Played with him for the past year or so and have never seen him book a win.

Villain 2 has reportedly lost several million over the past several years in underground games. Loves action. Pots most hands preflop and is willing to gamble in huge pots. Today is running like the sun and has approx. $6K when the hand starts. Apparently he was there earlier in the day, won $11K, ,left and came back. Bought in $1K 45 minutes ago and has already run it up to $6K by gambling and hitting with some marginal hands.

Hero is considered fairly tight and a winning player in the game. Was stuck early but now up approx. $2K with a $5K stack.

Hero is straddle with 91010J. Villain 1 is under the gun and calls 10. Villain 2 makes it $50 Under the Gun +2. 2 other callers, I call and villain 1 calls.

Flop is J103

I check (should I be potting here?) and it checks around suprisingly. Planned to check raise if anyone bet but OK with seeing turn if it checks around on draw heavy board.

Turn is the Q. I check and Villain 1 pots it to $250 and Villain 2 repots it to $1,000. If I call I'm pretty sure Villain 1 will pot it and reopen for Villain 2. Even though they are droolers I'm pretty sure Villain 2 has a straight and Villain 1 could have any straight, flush draw or possibly even a set of Q's. 100% sure he is never folding any of those hands.

Fold, Call or Raise?
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:39 AM   #2
Greg20
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

It's an easy fold, in my opinion. The thing about crazy players is that most of the times they're crazy but not (entirely) stupid, especially those who play a lot. So it's not like they lead 5-way on the turn and/or repot with a bad flushdraws or bottom sets/two pairs.

I also think that lead on the flop is very standard and I actually don't like going for a x/r (at least not 100% of the times). If we check I like x/c more. We're 500bb deep vs PFR, OOP, holding 2nd nuts and basically no redraws (poor bdfd & poor bdsd). On top of that we do not block straightdraws w/ AKQ. I know we do block jacks but in my opinion it's not enough.

Last edited by Greg20; 03-26-2019 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:28 PM   #3
muehlenzwick
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Easier said than done, when playing for a 12k Pot, but folding seems out of question imo. If villain 1 can have a lower straight here, He might even be flatting villain 2's raise. Sometimes your dominated with either your boat or flush outs, but overall you have tons of equity. If you think you get paid off otr when flatting i dont mind calling here. If V1 jams, so be it and you have to jam too.

If you dont think you get paid off otr, then i dont know what to do.

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Old 03-26-2019, 01:02 PM   #4
Javanewt
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Definitely bet this flop.

Pretty gross spot on turn. I can't fold yet. I flat and hope V1 flats.

That said, I would never blame anyone for folding here, and it might be the right play.
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Old 03-26-2019, 01:53 PM   #5
monikrazy
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

I would fold
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:42 PM   #6
BlindingLaser
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Fold, I don't think it's particularly close -- the only river card you actually like is the T, you aren't sure to get to see a river for $1K, and you can just plain find a better spot than this.
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:43 PM   #7
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Versus this particular lineup, check is no doubt the best play (I assume villains are betting large on any flop they get a piece of). Accordingly, if you check and V pots, you're either up against bottom set or a wrap, which is a range you love being up against. If you check and V checks back, then I doubt a bet on the flop would have accomplished anything anyway. So, the best play is to x/raise this flop.

As played, you're clearly behind on the turn. In addition, in my experience, even gambly players are sensible enough to fold their straight on a pairing river versus a nit (their perception of you is different from your perception of yourself - a non-nit would definitely 3b your hand preflop in their minds). This means turn is a fold.

Sucks that it played out that way, but I think you played it best.
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:10 PM   #8
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

I actually don't hate checking that flop; there are so many bad turns against wraps and you are first to act. CR is probably the line I'd prefer to take, but would occasionally lead this board based on the players/action.

With a turn that bad I would fold.

You've only got $50 invested and even if it hit you aren't certain you will get paid; if both guys have AK they will fold a board-pair on the river typically, so you lose all ship-value by flatting the re-raise (plus it puts you in a position to get squeezed all-in).
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Old 03-26-2019, 09:40 PM   #9
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

I ended up folding as I was afraid I’d get squeezed if I called. Sure enough Villain 1 went all in and Villain 2 snap called. They ran the river twice and first was 5 of spades and the 2nd was the case 10. They both had AK so I like the fold but being results oriented I would have won both and scooped a huge pot.
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Old 04-03-2019, 02:09 AM   #10
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Even if you knew the 3rd opponent was folding I would hate calling turn because your opponent will likely play perfectly against you on river and fold to bets on paired boards and even flush cards. Your opponent can also have your full house and flush draws dominated and get your 500BB in RIO is the main reason to fold. Good players rake this line all the time with nut spades and a few blockers, top set etc which makes just calling and folding river bad too. This is exactly why I like to have reads on my opponents and pick betting lines I can exploit and then take the betting initiative by bluffing in spots like these. Very few opponents will just call turn with AK making a B/B line very profitable here for A high flush draw bluffs etc.

Last edited by ABCforME; 04-03-2019 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 04-03-2019, 02:18 AM   #11
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

What helps me is to honestly not watch the runouts after I make my decision. Just look away and find out afterwards what people showed down if it’s likely to trigger you; avoidance works and you don’t have to become a meditative tilt free zombie. Also playing games where large pots don’t mentally affect you helps. Good luck
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Old 04-05-2019, 04:33 AM   #12
grant2
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by BulltexasATM View Post
If I call I'm pretty sure Villain 1 will pot it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
I flat and hope V1 flats.
"hope" is not a good poker strategy though

I think checking the river is correct; you have less than the nuts and only 3 outs to the nuts, and if you hit it's so hard to realize value. Even your redraws are weak. A flop bet simply lets villains play perfectly against you.
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Old 04-11-2019, 04:03 AM   #13
Rin-Inky
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

I'd highly consider 3betting pre. If you're flatting to avoid variance, should probably sit shorter. You have a hand that plays better short handed, overrealises as aggressor, and can call 4bets.

Almost certainly potting flop. Pick a better combo to trap.

Fold turn.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:27 AM   #14
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

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Originally Posted by Rin-Inky View Post
I'd highly consider 3betting pre. If you're flatting to avoid variance, should probably sit shorter. You have a hand that plays better short handed, overrealises as aggressor, and can call 4bets.

Almost certainly potting flop. Pick a better combo to trap.

Fold turn.
Disagree with basically everything in your post except the last sentence
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:25 PM   #15
rand
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

you should fold as played

unless you dont like money

or want to gamble...you have equity, but not odds IMO
-esp when they can have better spades...
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:06 AM   #16
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by BulltexasATM View Post
Disagree with basically everything in your post except the last sentence


Would love to hear what deciding factors you use for slow playing vs trapping on JT3r multiway.

Trapping when you block betting range J, but not KQ, giving him lots of combos that would check? What's your reasoning there?





Tell me, what's it like to always have AA when you squeeze?
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:22 PM   #17
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Trivial fold. Itís way too easy to end up putting $5k into a pot that was just $250 heading into this street with nothing but boat outs (and you block an out). Yes there will be times when you actually have like 40%+ equity and that sucks, but itís not worth it here.


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Old 04-14-2019, 02:56 PM   #18
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

I think this is a fold. You're looking at tiny profit/breakeven if you discount QQs (basically saying they'd only raise QQ/QT/QJ+spades and not just QQ). If you shift the ranges even a little to they'll occasionally ship naked QQ or will only flat with AK with no spades (increasing probability you're looking at bigger spades), then you dip below 33% that gets you to basically exactly breakeven.

The way I'd think of it on the spot is there are very few scenarios and combos where you are much better than breakeven (33% basically) but there are quite a few where you're looking at less than 33%. It also hurts that you're not the short stack.
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:02 PM   #19
triplej2688
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Gross spot but its an easy fold IMO.

That Qs hits the v2's range hard as a preflop raiser. I feel like at worse, you're up against AAxx with nut FD but more likely there is a K in there also. If the villians stack sizes were reversed, I could make an argument for jamming in order to build a side pot.

Also, I would check this flop all day too. You either get no value for your hand or you're facing your cards face up OOP, playing deep.
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:02 PM   #20
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Quote:
Tell me, what's it like to always have AA when you squeeze?
Probably doesn't mater in this kind of game as they don't fold any ways pre flop. I play in an omaha game like this where I rarely 3bet and when I do I get called any ways. They also don't fold when an A comes on the flop.


I think 3betting would of been fine. If you did 3bet you would of won the hand as well.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:53 PM   #21
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

Quote:
If you did 3bet you would of won the hand as well.
Would of? What does that mean?
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:42 AM   #22
BulltexasATM
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Re: Middle Set with Flush Draw on Turn, Possible straight on board - 5/5/10

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
Would of? What does that mean?
He's being results oriented and saying if I 3bet preflop and then potted flop I would have won because they would have folded but it is still not the right play against these villains this deep out of position in my opinion.
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